As with everything we state on this blog, all the statements can be backed up with further evidence in the way of emails, audio or visual recordings. In most cases this involves a combination of the aforementioned.
These are the 3 main meetings we had with the Metropolitan Police and The Monitoring Group.
Meeting Minutes
16th April 2015 12.30pm Garden Court Chambers
In Attendance:
Met Police Family The Monitoring Group
Detective Superintendant Stuart Hill Ruth Lovell (Toni) Suresh Grover
DI Sharon Freeman Woods Alexandria (Gina) Stafford Scott
DS Barry Macarthy Meghna Vadera
Marcus Jack
Point 4 Clarification – Stewart Hill – I know how important this is – my experience as an investigator – there’s only so much information I can get. No one can help more than the family. We need information such as the full lifestyle of the victim. The intention of the FLO was to secure communication between the investigator and the family.
You will see how we keep coming to dead ends.
Outcomes we would want from this meeting:
1. We would like to open up the dialogue between us and the family.
2. There is only so much we can do without talking to the family – we need to fix this. Victimology Statement – basic investigative lead – this is usual to take this from the family member – we can compare this info with the info we have.
Ruth: I don’t understand why I’m a witness?
Stewart Hill: Victimology Statement is important. The term ‘witness’ I think is being taken the wrong way. It will give us a picture of ABs lifestyle. We need to compare it to what we have and that will give us a true reflection of determining what has happened. Chance of directing the correct investigative lead.
Suresh Grover: So neither he/family are seen as suspects?
Stewart Hill: It’s a letter of law -you are only called a witness because you are giving a statement.
Need more detail in statement which is usually taken by the FLO – due to the breakdown this wasn’t possible. It doesn’t have to be you, it can be anyone in the family that knows about the most about him.
We haven’t closed our minds to one possibility:
1. Potential – gone into river – no third party involvement
2. Disappearance down to third party involvement
3. Deliberate avoidance on his part
We have our personal opinions but we can’t use any of this.
It will be a process of elimination and we can only do this by taking more info from the family.
We are here to reassure you that our investigation has been COMPREHENSIVE.
Things have gone wrong but we will take on board anything you think we should be doing. We need a productive meeting.
We are from Haringey Borough.
If it was being treated as a serious crime it would have been dealt with by a different unit.
Geographic locations:
Fox – Enfield
Accident – Haringey
Missing Persons Report – Colindale/Barnet.
Sharon and myself are bringing all the info together from all branches involved.
Steward Hill: We have asked for two reviews at the moment:
1. From the Critical Advisory Team – they check what we are doing, tell us what we haven’t done.
2. FLO – Asked for review team to come in – as this hasn’t worked.
Enquiries so far: We haven’t found any evidence of any intentional/ deliberate behaviour of any officer.
If you find anything different to this – you need to give us this information.
Suresh Grover: Yes issues need to be addressed that I think you need to look at.
Stafford Scott: It has been nearly 4 months he has been missing – from the three possibilities you stated before – Is one option stronger that the others?
Stewart Hill: 1. Least likely is deliberate avoidance.
2. Most likely – haven’t documented this – haven’t had a conversation to direct this but I think he has gone into the river. However, we don’t know enough about AB and his relationships with colleagues and friends. We can reassure you that it is comprehensive.
We thought very carefully about this meeting – we decided it was the best way to move this forward.
We need additional information to move this forward. What we have been told is selective – just slows the investigation down. Arnos Grove – 14 minutes after the car crash – he was still alive.
There’s a male in the car – Arnos Grove to the crash point – but we haven’t been able to corroborate his story (For 14 mins after the car crash there’s no evidence of what happened in this period). We have struggled putting him in the car – we have been pushing to this corroborated using CCTV, Phones, AMPR. We are going on objective evidence – first using AMPR – When a vehicle goes through CCTV camera
Then using CCTV with the timeline of relevant events.
Sharon Freeman Woods: Timeline is as follows:
8.02pm – Meridin Way – BMW was picked up
10.00 – 10.45pm – Between this time the BMW is parked at DF address
11.14pm – BMW seen on North Circular heading to Fox
11.21pm – CCTV – In the Fox Pub – Silver BMW parks up on Fox Lane
We were going by his white trainers
AB – gets out of the driver’s seat with white trainers
DF gets out of the passenger seat
11.22pm – DF and AB enter the pub via the front entrance. Can see DF is wearing black jacket that was found in the marshes.
11.22-11.23pm – AB walks across the pub – appears to enter the men’s room – comes out shortly afterwards.
11.24pm – AB/Alpesh/Darren – leave from the back door and walk to the BMW
12.28am – (Cant be disputed) – Alpeshs Iphone – last time he uses it and then he loses it.
1.21am – DF/AM/AB – They enter the BMW
1.24am – DF/AM/AB – exit the BMW
24th January 2015
1.30am – There are various fights in the beer garden – we can’t see who is involved
1.33am – AB is seen having a fight with a black male – JB. Incident inside the pub – see them grappling.
1.41am – LAS phoned the police – Call for Assistance – saying there is a fight in the Fox Pub. No one inside called the police.
1.45am – Male(questioned whether AB) returns to the BMW – goes to boot takes top off and places it in the boot of the car – there is commotion outside.
1.46am – Male believed to be AM walks away from the pub and disappears out of view
1.46am – Two white males fighting outside.
1.48am – AB and AM enter the pub. AB has a black jacket on with buttons on the breast.
1.50am – AB walks outside of the pub toward the BMW
Ruth states she doesn’t think that is AB.
1.51am – BMW drives off
1.52am – AM was wearing a blue jumper and leaves the pub alone
1.52am – Last call made by AB – (Nokia phone) – Call to AM
1.55am – DF was not wearing a jacket and leaves the pub alone.
2.32am – AMPR picks up BMW A409 between Whetstone and Frien Barnet
2.55am – CCTV of AB and a male called TL in Dadios – CCTV in Dadios
2.57am – Four of them in Dadios
2.58am – AMPR – BMW on Bowes Road – outside Dadios
3.03am – CCTV – shows BMW speeding down Montague Road into Conduit Road N18
3.06am – TL (claims he is in BMW) his phone is sighted at the crash
3.09am – Police were called to Watermead Way/ Leaside Road.
Log states: ‘Found vehicle smashed, airbag deployed, wheel hanging off, blocking the road’
3.23am – TL’s phone is placed on High Road, Park Lane
3.34am – Vehicle removal request – uniformed officer in attendance at the crash. He reports: No evidence of blood, injury or anyone. No one decamping from vehicle. Only airbags deployed. ACTION: We need to know what was reported about the wheel?
3.40am – Air support unit did a 360 degree search.
4.23am – Request to recover BMW and take it to the compound to Perivale.
4.45am – Officer at crash – Request for Local Authority to clear debris on the road.
Stafford Scott: What was the location of the crash?
Sharon Freeman Woods: Crash took place on Leeside Road/ Watermead Way, the wheel was embedded in railings. The car then moved a further 500 metres from there on the other side of the road – facing opposite direction to the road.
The driver’s seat is facing east, passengers seat is facing west.
No photos were taken of the car at the scene.
There was no evidence of any foul play at that time.
The police officer just turned up for a Road Traffic Accident.
It is important to state that it was a different area to Fox so it’s not the same officers that would have dealt with this.
The traffic officer checked the details of the car. Registered keeper details came back to the previous owner in Luton. Officers attended the previous lady owner – she said she sold it.
Our primary concern – who’s car it was?
We have made enquiries to find the wheel now. It was handed over to us at Haringey from Barnet on Monday. We were working backwards – and had to catch up for 24 hours.
Barry and Sharon have made enquiries about the wheel. There is a reference number – request was made to collect it. We tried to locate it.
Suresh Grover: So what day/time was the car linked to AB?
25th January 2015
25th January at 11.12am – CAD 3312/0203 490 1360 – Ruth gives full details of the BMW (Colour/Reg), not just the index number.
25th January at 7.28pm – Connection is made with Accident and missing persons report. (Took a while due to both incidents taking place in different areas)
10.58pm – CAD 8840 Call from Alpesh – states he has not heard from AB – says he was driving drunk and that he found the crash on Meridith Way.
11.11pm – Missing persons department spoke to RL – Advised her to check all the hospitals
26th January 2015
09.34 – Colindale officer reports that he spoke to RL. It was relayed that he was an adult male with no vulnerabilities. He was known to the police.
His new car had been found crashed and it was not known who was driving the car. AB had been in contact with his kids all weekend.
The additional information resulted in the risk level increasing from low to medium.
09.40 – The same officer makes the connection with the Fox Pub Crime reference: 5201674 which was a report made at the Fox as a result of a fight there. The victim/suspect at the Fox – see whether their descriptions match the car accident.
CAD 1296 24th Jan – updates – found at Tottenham marshes.
09.58 – The same officer notes actions(Barnet officer):
1. Speak to Fox Pub in Enfield
2. CCTV?
3. Speak to AM/Any girlfriends
4. Flat searched?
5. Check police between The Fox and Tottenham Marshes.
14.55 – Detective Inspector Whise – Increases the risk level to HIGH. This is after a call about the jacket.
Actions to be completed:
1. Visit the mums address
2. Request bank details
3. Girlfriend/partner/ex’s
4. refresh hospital search
15.48 – AM CAD 5804 calls and reports the jacket being found in the marshes.
15.55 – Air support is deployed.
CAD 5604 – States: the jacket is cold. Air support state: It is likely to have been there a long time.
16.07 – Dog unit is requested. Tottenham Lock 17 appears undisturbed.
16.30 – Lock 16 – is open
16.30 – Dog searches take place
16.37 – Pulsa request (Special search)
16.41 – Authorities around mobiles. A nokia was found – currently at Perivale in the BMW
16.43 – Marine support on the scene.
Note taken: Initial hospital checks done. A second one is being requested again.
Note taken: disturbance of gravel – not footprints
17.32 – Air support concludes their search.
22.13 – Lock 16 was searched
Officer from Barnet went to see RL
Note taken: Ruth states he may be lying low because he thinks he’s in trouble.
Officer from Haringey called and said they will be taking over.
The media disclosure – Ruth was unwilling to sign this.
Requested Haringey and Colindale. They were not helpful.
22.46 – Officers attend Ruth’s home address
27th January 2015
11.20 – Sharon and Inspector Grevatt (A specialist inspector) – talked about strategy to search – based on all the information we had.
The three and a half day search included:
1. Two dog units
2. The Marine Search
3. The Pulsa Team
The following was agreed at this 11.20am meeting:
1. 100m circumference – Pulsa Search – For AB clothing or jewellery
2. 300m circumference search around the spot where the jacket was found. The parameters were extended to 500m.
3. A dive team following the flow of water from the jacket to Pymms Brook
We were testing the three hypothesis that we initially laid out.
The maps are shown of the location the crash happened, where the car was found and where the jacket was found.
The jacket was not found in a natural location from the crash site.
We used victim recovery dogs just in case someone was hiding alive.
The water is not that deep however it varies in depth.
Sharon Freeman Woods: He didn’t crash on Sedge Road but it is the nearest junction to where the car crashed.
The crash took place on Leeside Roadwhere the wheel was lodged.
The wheel was found quite far from where the car was found.
A witness account from TL says AB was driving. we have sought to corroborate his story.
Stewart Hill: The natural route to run from the crash to the jacket – would not be to go over the brambles and bushes. From Marigold Road – across the field – would have been a more natural route.
The search included:
1. Dogs Units
2. Marine Units
3. Fingertips Search
4. Air support Unit – extra layer – to cover the search in extra detail
Stewart Hill: We had taken advice from the Special Search team. If we found any other evidence then the strategy would change e.g. any witness saying they saw anyone running in any particular direction.
There is no witness who saw the crash where the wheel came off OR where the car crashed or anyone fleeing the scene.
In the absence of evidence to guide us which way to look.
Sharon Freeman Woods: In regards to the CCTV:
1. We have the Fox Pub – we have a male we believe to be AB in white trainers.
2. CCTV around the car from AMPR
3. We have put out a witness appeal for a 7 tonne lorry.
4. We have found a likely route he may have taken.
5. We have information from two witnesses who stopped at the scene after the crash. The description of the accent is from the two witnesses.
6. We have a statement from the witness who found the car. He tells them he saw a red Fiesta, a lorry and a saloon car – they recognised them passing by. We are not sure if they saw the car crash.
7. The only account is from this TL – and we have to test his account.
Suresh Grover: Is there any CCTV about TL?
Stewart Hill: No. We have done cell set analysis on TL’s mobile number and ABs mobile location. We know his mobile was there but not him(AB).
Before the road accident we know that AB, than and two others were on CCTV at Dadyals.
Even two witnesses say they were both together.
TL is saying he was with AB and he says that AB was driving.
Stafford Scott: What does TL’s statement say happened after that?
Stewart Hill: Well, AM states the jacket was found on the scene by JW. The jacket is stone cold.
Suresh Grover: I thought the jacket looked dry, clean and even folded? What about the ticket?
Sharon Freeman Woods: There are two accounts about the jacket:
1. JW with another person finds the jacket and finds the bus ticket inside the pocket. He calls AM and gives AM the ticket. Then he said he put the jacket down in the same place he found it.
We know this is DF jacket. He has verified this is his jacket.
On the CCTV – we see DF carrying something DARK out of The Fox. He goes to the car and comes out of the car without a jacket.
Strong evidence – but from the BMW to where it was found. Could have been AB, TL, third party..
The same team went down there to search. The search stays as it is – as there is guidance to any direction.
Suresh Grover: At what point did it get to you?
The reason it was passed to Haringey was because of the crash scene and ABs address. A discussion took place between Barnet and Haringey. haringey decided they were better suited to deal with this.
Suresh Grover: As a Senior investigating Officer Stuart, are there any other possible solutions?
Stewart Hill: Yes. Not just Missing Persons.
I have already requested two reviews which are being conducted which we are still awaiting the results. Yes we have called in Serious Crimes Unit three times. This is one of the reviews.
We have called in the Assessment team from SCU. We have briefed them, they have reviewed it and have given written advice.
We did this within 24 hours of Haringey taking over. On the Monday missing persons got involved.
Suresh Grover: Can you explain generally your police practice –
There are serious questions that need to be answered after the car crash and his disappearance:
1. being chased out of the pub
2. Questions about the toothbrush?? Jacket??
3. We don’t know what time AB leaves the pub?
Stewart Hill: We can see from CCTV after Fox – AB doesn’t seem threatened at that point.
SCN01 – Serious Crimes Unit. It is good practice to discuss options in the absence of third party evidence.
It is still a high risk Misper Enquiry.
The evidence we had to go on:
1. Fights in the pub
2. police contact with AB
1. The Fox crime Report GBH – victim found at The Fox. he didn’t want to substantiate that allegation. It was clear he was in a fight. The description given did not match ABs description.
Sharon was linked with officers investigating at The Fox.
Another crime report – under Affray – attached to that some people were arrested. JB and two other witnesses were investigated.
The CCTV showed JB as the victim. AB was not linked to any of this by name or description.
2. There is nothing on our system which flags up. There is no record of AB having any contact with police. We don’t see any police officers approaching him on CCTV.
AM has been arrested several times during this investigation. He admitted he planted the toothbrush. He hasn’t given us an account of why he did that.
Ruth: CCTV at 1.51 showing someone getting into the car – doesn’t look like him – I don’t think that is AB.
The Albanian guy in Dadyals – AB has done dealings with him – the fat guy with the moustache.
Sharon Freeman Woods: We have no Albanian witnesses.
Additional information given to us during the meeting which was held on the 16th April 2015. These minutes have been taken from the recording Ruth made at that meeting.
Time table of events from Friday 23rd January 2015:
20:02 – The BMW is picked up in the vicinity of Meridan Way.
22:00 – The BMW is in the vicinity of DL’s home.
23:14 – BMW is on the North circular heading towards the Fox. The ANPR has not picked up the BMW after that time.
23:21 – A silver BMW pulls up at the Fox pub.
23:22 – Ambrose and DL enter the pub by the front entrance.
Time table of events on Saturday 24th January 2015:
00:28 – AM uses his telephone for the last time. That telephone he claims he lost.
01:20 – Ambrose, AM and DF leave the Fox by the front door and go towards the BMW.
01:24 – Ambrose, DF and AM enter the Fox, and walk back round to the front entrance.
01:30 – Various fights break out in the marquee in the beer garden.
01:33 – Ambrose is seen having a fight.
01:41 – The emergency services contacted the police for assistance regarding a fight at the Fox.
01:45 – A male believed to be Ambrose returns to the BMW, looks like he is being chased. There are a load of people about and it’s unclear what’s going on.
01:46 – AM walks away from the car park, and disappears.
01:46 – Two unknown white males are seen fighting outside the pub close to the BMW.
01:47 – Fighting moves out of sight. Large number of males and police start to get involved. A male believed to be Ambrose is seen running down Fox Lane, only wearing his jeans and trainers.
01:48 – Ambrose and AM are seen entering the Fox.
01:50 – A male, believed to be Ambrose leaves the Fox and gets into his car.
01:51 – The BMW drives
01:52 – Ambrose makes his last call from his phone.
02:32 – ANPR picks up the BMW on the A409 between Whetstone through Barnet.
02:55 – Ambrose and TL are captured on CCTV at Dadyals.
02:58 – the ANPR picks up the BMW on Bows Rd, which is very close to Dadyals.
03:03 CCTV shows BMW travelling at speed onto Montegue Rd into Conduit Rd.
03:06 – TL’s phone is cell sited at the location where the BMW crashed.
03:09 hours 101 receives a call from a member of the public who reports seeing a car at the location of Watermead Way and Leeside Rd. Witness states found a vehicle smashed up, airbags deployed, front wheel hanging off, gave the registration number of a dark grey BMW blocking the road.
03:23 TL’s phone is placed on High Road Park Lane.
03:34 A vehicle removal request was put in by the attending officers. Attending officers reported searching around the car and they found no evidence of blood, injury or occupants, no one was seen to leave the BMW. They also state no one was seen leaving the car.
03:40 Air support unit were deployed and did a 360 degree search around the vehicle/marshes/area.
04:23 A request went in to recover the vehicle to the police compound at Perivale.
04:45 – Attending officer requested the local authority to come out and clear debris off the road.
Sunday 25th January 2015
11:12 – Ruth gave the police details of the BMW. CAD 3312 was given.
19:28 – Connection made with accident and missing person.
22:58 – CAD 8840 – the police received a call from AM. AM states that he hasn’t heard from Ambrose. AM says Ambrose was reported missing on the 24th. AM states Ambrose was driving, he was drunk. Found bits the BMW on Meridith way, Leeside.
23: 11 – CAD 8840 – Missing persons Barnet called. States speaking with Ruth, advice given check with hospitals and local for accidents.
Monday 26th January 2015
09:34 – Colindale officer states she spoke with Ruth. Notes taken are it’s an adult male, without vulnerabilities, is known to police, his new car had been smashed up near by which have been recovered, not known who was driving at the time, Ambrose never failed to turn up and visit his children. Due to these circumstances – the risk at this time was deemed to be medium.
09:40 – The same officer as above, made the connection with the Fox pub Crime Reference Number 5201674 – Officer checked that the victim and suspect on that report to see if it matched Ambrose i.e road traffic accident. She also reports CAD 1296 from the 24th January 2015 – updates and reports saying car was found near Tottenham Marshes.
09:58 – The same officer makes a note of actions that she was carrying out, one of which is to speak to the Fox pub. The Fox incident happened in Enfield borough. Find out whether they’ve got CCTV and to speak with A and a list of any friends he may have been with, any girlfriends. She wanted to know if the house had been searched and she made a note of any CCTV enquires around where the car was found, check petrol stations between the pub and the marshes.
14:55 – Detective Inspector Wise ups the risk to high. This was as a result of the jacket being found. DI Wise confirms high risk.
15:48 – AM phoned on CAD 5804 to report a coat being found at the marshes.
15:55 – The RS call Unit was deployed. CAD 5604 – states the jacket is cold, no heat source coming from jacket, likely to have been there for some time.
16:07 – Dog unit is requested. Tottenham lock number 17 appears to be undisturbed.
16:30 – Lock 16 appears to be open.
16:30 – Dog searches.
16:37 – Polsa search team is requested.
16:39 – Requested hospital checks.
16:41 – Ambrose phone is located at Perivale.
16:43 – The marine support are called in. States Initial hospital checks are done, but they are to be redone.
17:32 – Air Support Unit concludes their search.
22:13 – Lock 16 was searched.
22:46 – Colindale Officers attend Ruths home. During this visit Harringey called and said they were taking over the investigation.Tuesday 27th January 2015
11:20 – Sharon Freeman Wood and Inspector Grevatt, specialist inspector met and went over a search plan. It was agreed that a 100 meter pulsa finger circumference search of the jacket. The purpose for that was looking for Ambroses clothing or jewellery. 300 meters search of open area circumference around the coat. A dive team from where the coat was located all the way down to Kings Brook. Those 300 meter of open space were extended between the different teams, within those 3 days to 500 meters.
Ambrose Case Conference – Tuesday 28th April 2015
Venue: Garden Court Chambers at 2pm
RE: Meeting Minutes
In attendance:
Met Police Family The Monitoring Group
DSI Stuart Hill Ruth Lovell (Toni),
Ambroses Grandfather, Alexandria (Gina) Christopher
Suresh GroverDI Sharon Freeman Woods , Stafford Scott
DS Barry Macarthy Meghna Vadera
Stewart Hill: I will be seeing the Coroner on Thursday and will find out from him
Ruth: CCTV I request to see 5 mins of either side of each clip.
Stewart Hill: Officers have identified what is relevant and what is not relevant. You can see what you want, but as an investigation we have taken the relevant parts.
CCTV: 23rd January 2015
23.21.20 secs/ABs BMW Parks up on Fox Lane. AB out of driver’s side.
Stewart Hill: Please make a note of anything you are not happy with, for an example if you see a pattern or clothing match.
23.22-23.23- AB enters and walks to the toilet.
23.23.08 – Comes out of the toilet.
1.25.39 – AB walks across pub to a white guy and talks to him until 1.26.
1.31.05 – Beer garden – 8/9 males / fight breaks out (all white males).
1.31.34 – AB comes outside in grey t-shirt – fight breaks out with AB – someone is holding him back.
1.32.50 – AM can be seen, someone is holding him back. DF is there.
1.34 – Crowd disperses near the outside smoking area.
1.34- 2 white males outside the pub, neither have come forward.
1.45.10 – Someone goes to the BMW, takes their top off and puts it in the car and runs off down the road.
1.45.50 – Someone else near car and then runs off.
1.46.20 – The two guys that can be seen, neither have come forward.
1.46. approx 30 secs- Someone jumps in BMW, drivers side.
1.46.40 – 2 males fighting at the same time 2 males jump out of the BMW.
1.47.17 – Police are there chasing after someone.
1.47.40 – Someone gets out of the BMW drivers side.
1.48.07 – AB walks back into the pub. AM is with him at the entrance.
1.48.26 – JD is speaking to AB and AM. AB and AM are both looking out at the glass window in the door. She says she advises them not to go out.
1.49.08 – PB security guard is present with JD.
1.50 – Someone comes out from the back alley way where the gate is usually closed and gets into the BMW.
Ruth: This is definitely not AB.
1.51.05 – Someone gets out of the car and goes to the boot and back into the drivers seat.
1.51.26 – Car drives off speeding.
1.52 – AB makes a call.
Dadyals:
2.54.51 – AB walks into the newsagent Dadyals with one male with hood and glasses.
2.55.42 – AB walks out of the shop.
2.55.57 – AB walks back into the shop. TL walks in with a rucksack. 5 males are gathered talking and buying beer. AB is at the till.
2.58.04 – AB walks out of the shop.
Ruth: Asks about the outside footage. CCTV across the road. AB at Dadyals does not look as if he has been in any fight. He is happy and joking around. If he was in a fight he would have come home. I can see he is not drunk at this point. TL walks out behind him and is the last person in the car. He has no injuries and he has a rucksack on, how is that possible? You are just showing us the same thing as last time. What we want to see they are not showing us. You can see him coming out of the pub to the BMW. You just assume its AB. We are not sure.
Alexandria: Sharon has quoted in the media that AB has got into the car.
Ruth: I want to see him clearly exiting the pub.
Ruth /Alexandria: We were told that the CCTV in Dadyals was not working at that time.
Stewart Hill: We need to know this information if its contradictory to what we have, then we can investigate. We get a statement from them when we recover the CCTV. We also have a statement from Dadyals saying that they saw a BMW parked outside and they heard a conversation about the BMW between AB and TL.
Car Accident:
⦁ Vehicle was identified by a witness.
⦁ CCTV shows the roads are very quiet, picks up a black car and then another car speeds through.
⦁ Statement has been taken from 71/2 tonne lorry driver
⦁ 2 witnesses who saw the car and no one inside. These two witnesses state that there were 3 vehicles passing the scene.
⦁ TL claimed that neither himself or AB were injured
Sharon Freeman Woods: Yes the wheel was off.
Stewart Hill: TL said he had no injury. Post-mortem results show no injury was found and no broken bones. This is subject to a CT scan. Drivers-side door air-bags had been deployed.
Suresh Grover: Where did TL say AB went?
Stewart Hill: Due to the impact of the vehicle, TL said he gets out of the car, while AB carries on in the car on his own.
Sharon Freeman Woods: TL says they are not friends. The second crash happened 50 yards away from the first crash.
Stewart Hill: We are not saying we believe him. This is what the witness is telling us.
Chris: After the crash, why would AB go towards the marshes?
Stewart Hill: He was wanted. He was probably drinking and on drugs. He had no insurance, would he evade a arrest?
Chris: It doesn’t make sense where he was found if he went in the river. There is a grey gate (locked by tenants) there is no way his body could get down to the river through the 3 locked gates. In January when I have been walking out there I remember the shore line wasn’t too high.
Stewart Hill: We need to test that. We will take that on. We need to ask the experts. Its not up to us what we believe. We have to just show the facts. There are no witnesses or evidence that discounts what he is telling us. We just have to continue to test.
Chris: There is no way AB would have crashed and left his phones. We believe TL drove the car from Dadyals. AM told TL who first told us that they had an accident in the Fox Car park, now we are told the car was not parked in the car park.
Post-Mortem:
Stewart Hill: The post-mortem which was carried out on Friday 24th April was inconclusive. There was no over indication of any obvious 3rd party involvement.
1) There is no physical injury, no stab wounds, which were obvious to the pathologist. However the body has been sent to the Royal London Hospital for a CT scan to do a full x-ray of the body. We expect the results back today but have had no update as of yet. We will let you know by tomorrow or Thursday.
2) No signs of drowning, there is no water in his lungs however when you hit freezing water the shock can result in your larynx closing which can cause death with no water in the lungs.
3) A sample has been taken from the liver and the lungs. Its called Diatoms which have been sent to the Natural History Museum. This will be used to determine how long he was in the water for.
4) His post examination is on Friday and there is still a lot more to come. We will inform you as soon as we have an update.
Ruth: We want to do an independent post-mortem.
Stewart Hill: It is not up to us. It is the Coroner’s decision. I can raise this with him on Thursday. His clothing was taken, it has been removed packaged and stored. We need to keep it, it may be relevant to do further tests. The clothing may become more relevant at a later stage.
I am not a scientist. My role is just to make that assessment, until the Pathologist has given me the results I have to test the information I have been given.
Ambrose’s Grand-Father: Why was it not put in the media straight-way? Why was there no call for witnesses and any information?
Ruth: You still did not put it in the paper. All false information was given to media. I told Sharon all the info re where the crash happened.
Alexandria: You have been quoted in the paper Sharon.
Stewart Hill: The CT scan will show any injury to the body which may lead to evidence of 3rd party involvement. If no injury is found it will stay the same being no 3rd party involvement.
Stewart Hill: you’ve obviously been doing your own investigations.
Ruth: For 3 months you weren’t listening to us. We have been telling you.
Stewart Hill: We can assure you it has been in the media.
Chris: I asked him why it hasn’t been in the media as Ruth has said she would do it.
Stewart Hill: We send the information to the media department they canvass it out to all the newspapers and journalists.
Alexandria: Yes but Sharon Freeman Woods has been quoted in the paper giving the wrong information. She has stated the wrong location and says that Sedge Road is where the collision took place. The collision was on Leeside Road and the car was found near Sedge Road.
Ruth: He’s been lying in the river for 3 months. You could have found him.
Alexandria: They covered 500 meter radius. Had you searched using the marine search like you said you would, you would have found him.
Ruth: Witnesses, Gina and I have all been trying to contact Barry with no response.
Chris: You had Ruth for 3 days at the marshes, we were saying that river needs to be searched and that was where he was found.
Sharon Freeman Woods: 500 meters around the jacket was searched.
Chris: Ruth waited for 3 hours that day.
Stafford Scott: Please find out what happened there and why. This is unacceptable policing.
Stewart Hill: Sure.
Stafford Scott: A lot of mis-trust comes from how the family was treated. If mistakes were made you should say in hindsight we could have done this better.
Stewart Hill: Our offer was there to come around. Our instruction was to contact Gina first., which is what I did. I contacted Gina first and then Suresh. My instruction was to pick up Gina and take her to Ruth’s.
Even though the body was not identified yet, I needed to tell you first.
Ruth: It was out in the media about the body being found, before we identified him.
Stewart Hill: No
Alexandria: We didn’t ID him until Friday. The media went out on Wednesday.
Stewart Hill: The press was contacted after Gina was told the body had been found. I told the press the facts, just that a body was found and not that it was AB.
Stafford Scott: I spoke to Victor O’Lisa he was told under strict instructions to call Gina first before contacting Suresh.
Stewart Hill: I’m trying to do the best for you. I have made myself available.
Ambrose’s Grand-Father: The way you have treated them is troubling. How can you not understand how someone feels if their son is missing. No one took any interest.
Stewart Hill: Yes they did – hours were spent on investigation statements taken.
Ruth: You haven’t approached or spoken to any of the security guards.
Stewart Hill: A couple of them are not making themselves available. They are avoiding us as some had no licence to bouncer that night. It is on our action list. We have already got a statement from JD, we have been trying but they are not available.
Chris: This has happened since the beginning. No one has cone to see her face to face. Ruth has been frustrated with the lack of information you were giving. You said you were taking the FLO off and giving us an independent one.
Stewart Hill: I am accepting what you are saying – it hasn’t worked. We need to communicate, if I don’t know this information i can’t carry out my investigations.
Chris: If you had done what Victor had said and given us a new team, the fact that Sharon Freeman is still on the team and Ruth didn’t trust her.
Sharon Freeman Woods: The FLO was at Ruth’s request.
Ruth: Nope, I didn’t want the police
Chris: If the FLO can’t take what was being said there then that person shouldn’t be in the job in the first place.
Stewart Hill: The FLO didn’t work out. Ruth didn’t want a police officer.
Ruth: Her name was DC Leah Whitby, I knew she was a police officer even though she said she was independent. I have her on a recording saying this.
Stafford Scott: The use of the word independent means she was not an officer.
Stewart Hill: If she did say that and you have it recorded, I need to know this, I just need to know what has happened.
Alexandria: Why was Bobby involved?
Stewart Hill: It was my decision, he was a community worker. I wanted to try and recover the broken communications with the family. We seized this opportunity when Suresh called to try and communicate and fix relations.
Suresh Grover: 1. Media Coverage – due to him being black it may have not been covered;
2. The Mother and Family were searching for her son and the police weren’t believing Ruth (mother).
3. FLO – I have never heard of an independent FLO. I can understand her false sense of who this was and loss of trust.
4. The family were totally desperate, they used Facebook and were searching for him themselves which is concerning.
5. Due to the decomposition of the body we may not get a proper post-mortem. The Pathologist are all accredited.
6. Important CCTV, 24th January, Dadyals. We need to know at what time AB leaves the pub?
Suresh Grover: We are now at the point that we can’t collect evidence ourselves without the police involved and we need to test this evidence. Even if we have mis-trust in the police there are two ways of collecting evidence. 1. Police and 2. Medical Evidence. For it to be admissible evidence only the police can collect it, to be able for it to be used in court. Alarm bells and questions are all being asked which we need answers for. Simultaneously we need to find out what happened to AB.
Stafford Scott: The question Ruth asked you, why should she trust you? I think you need to explain to ensure that we can move forward.
Stewart Hill: The fact that we are here today, for example how we are trying to answer all the questions you may have. We will try and answer them all but some answers we don’t know. Some I will be able to. I have not come across one piece of evidence to suggest that someone deliberately tried to compromise this investigation. I would know and I would deal with it, it would be found out later on, so I’m on top of it. There has been no deliberate act.
Would the Met have dealt with it differently?
1. Yes I would, I accept the response that Ruth got was not appropriate
2. I accept that FLO relationship breakdown was our fault
Ruth: If you had listened you may have found him earlier.
Stewart Hill: Not sure. We are not half way there yet
Ruth: I called them and asked them to help for 3 days.
Stafford Scott: What about an apology?
Stewart Hill: I’m here now to do that. This is the reason for this. Barry and I were only trying to convince Ruth and Gina not to see the body as after 29 years of experience..
Chris: If there were no suspicious circumstances why are people on Facebook being threatened if they don’t shut-up. There are death threats being made that we will be killed. The police are aware of this, Police have visited them at home. We have a CAD reference.
Stewart Hill: We will follow up on that Chris.
Stafford Scott: So the next steps are:
1. We need to get them legal support for Thursday. The Coroner’s Officer is Becky Smith and to address all enquiries through her. She will liaise with the Coroner.
2. We need to decide now when we get the information who and how you would like us to go through, so it should all go through Suresh.
3. AB’s belongings – so you told them they can pick up the clothes in February, they have and email from a senior officer.
Stewart Hill: That would have been me.
Suresh Grover: The property from his car, AM and all personal property have all been logged. We need to make arrangements about when and how we can get it back.
Stewart Hill: I need to keep hold of the property, it can be given back however I want to keep hold of it. After the post-mortem if there needs to be further investigation, if I hand it back we will lose the forensics. I need it to be a continual investigation.
Suresh Grover: Yes alarm bells were going off, I was wondering about the continuity when I saw the email.
Ruth & Alexandria: We still have two black bags of clothing, which were dropped to us 10 days after AB’s disappearance.
Stewart Hill: Let me get the results of the post-mortem, then I will know.
Stafford Scott: We found it strange that AM was giving the clothes to the family.
Suresh Grover: Was AM arrested about the toothbrush?
2. All the people with AB that day/ is it believable professionally, what they are saying? For an example AM giving the wrong toothbrush.
Stewart Hill: If we have doubts we will question and challenge. Its only about the facts and not what I believe and so I can’t say.
The police have spoken to AM 3 times and TL 3 times.
Ruth: AM has been trying to get my address to see me.
Suresh Grover: Are there any potential lines of enquiry open from the witness statements and if so how many?
Sharon Freeman Woods: Yes we have about 25 open lines of enquiry. For example we are trying to verify who Ibs is. We are looking at everything and we are testing everything we are being told.
Ambrose’s Grand-Father: We need to get the trust back. We need to be told you are going to help us as much as possible.
Ruth: Why haven’t you acted on the false toothbrush?
Alexandria: There have been 3 incidents, 26 January – real toothbrush and real DNA.
Ruth: You left it out of the timeline last week. You didn’t say this on it.
Sharon Freeman Woods: We have made sure to search his flat and test what he has been saying and he has been questioned.
Chris: TL was placed at High Road Park Lane at 3.23am. 3 calls were made at 3.06, 3.09 and 3.12am. How did he manage to go back to the car and get his cigarettes and then get to the High Road in Park Lane by 323am?
Sharon Freeman Woods: His phone was cell cited at that time. I am only going on what he is telling me. AB carries on further down the road, doesn’t see the car coming to a standstill. He says there was nobody in the car and he doesn’t look for him. He said he didn’t see anyone getting out of the car.
Chris: I don’t think AB was in the car.
Sharon Freeman Woods: TL says its a distance of a football pitch, between one crash and another.
Stafford Scott: All these questions, we can put them to the Officers after the post-mortem.
Stewart Hill: We want a statement from a family member, we still need a victimology. In addition to that, I want to know what you really think.
Ruth: I believe 2 officers have taken AB from the pub.
Chris: We were told the CCTV didn’t work. You need to find out about that which will prove … There were 3 witnesses saying they were there at the time as well.
Stewart Hill: We will confirm the date of the CCTV at Dadyals.
Sharon Freeman Woods: We need the details of who has told you the CCTV was not working.
Stewart Hill: Don’t think we believe what TL is telling us. He can tell us what he wants. Your probably right Chris, he probably did see AB get out of the car after the accident.
Stewart Hill: ACTION – Make an arrangement to get the statement from the family.
Sharon Freeman Woods: ACTION – I want the details of Ibs. Does AM know Ibs?
Ruth: You need to ask AM.
Sharon Freeman Woods: If the family know please try to provide this.
Stafford Scott: After the inquest / post-mortem we may need to meet again, at least for the CT scan by the end of the week. Inquest is at 9am on Thursday. All communications should go through SG, including post-mortem and CT scan etc.
Ambrose Ball Case Conference
11th June 2015
Meeting Minutes
In Attendance:
Met Police; Family Solicitor; The Monitoring Group;
Stuart Hill; Ruth Lovell;Gina/Alexandria & Christopher Harrison
Christina; Suresh Grover;Victor Olisa’ Jonathon, Stafford Scott; Another Officer; Meghna Vadera
Suresh Grover: We will start with just the facts and not lines of enquiry –
So we know for sure:
AB at The Fox Pub
Fights at the Fox
CCTV at Dadyals
Car Accident
Body in river(found)
Unresolved issues:
AB drives car from Fox?
Date of CCTV at Dadios?
Jacket near River and the circumstances
TL’s Version – who drove the car and what happened
AM and the toothbrush
Second Meeting
New witness – man seen staggering to another car – then they were told it was from another accident
Wrong information provided to Coroner
Ruth – Has been given property from AM’s flat
The use of media from the beginning
Relations b/w Met and RL – Ongoing
Apology about the FLO
Last Meeting:
UPDATE: Have the police been able to trace movements from Dadios to the accident to the where the body was found.
Forensics?
New information – further examination of the car?
Hypothesis – police are working from:
1. Third party involvement
2. Unexplained death
Decision Logs/family liaison documents – Is there anything significant?
We would like to view these documents if possible?
24th August 2015 – Inquest Date set.
Victor Olisa – I apologise that we are in this position, that the trust has broken down and you have questions about the sincerity of our investigations. I can assure you we have used all the resources available to us. After the body was found – we have tried to widen our enquiries to see if there is any third party involvement.
I need to reiterate that we have been taking it seriously. He is the most senior detective in the borough – it is a complex investigation and Stuart Hill has the experience. He has a high level of sincerity and is professional.
There have been a number of reviews given to specialists outside the borough. There is a review of response – post the body being found.
IPCC have done their own external scrutiny – due to the ongoing investigations they couldn’t get involved and have passed it onto the DPS.
Ruth: I went to the IPCC about the way I was treated – not AB missing but the way they disregarded me.
Victor O’lisa: The Critical Incident Team did another review. I will give you the documents of all the reviews.
Stewart Hill: If you weren’t satisfied with the CCTV – we are more than willing for you to come in and and view the 50 hours of CCTV. We can facilitate this.
Victor O’lisa: We will give you this information.
Suresh Grover: But in summary – verbally and a bit more about how you have treated it as a suspicious death.
Lines of Enquiry – If it is a suspicious death, this is new information – you need to explain
Stewart Hill: It’s not a suspicious death. It’s an unexplained death. We are still waiting for results from the pathologist and toxicology reports. The diatoms results came back inconclusive and more likely to be the result of drowning.
Caveat in his report but we still need some questions answered.
Ruth Lovell: I have been told that the face in the water is the last thing to go but if it is on land the face is the first thing to go. But ABs face was the only thing to go.
Stewart Hill: Got letter from David Lammy – more detail to questions that are being asked – reply Tues next week.
Stewart Hill: We have spoken to TL (spent a whole day with him). There is nothing that has differed from his original statement. It is evident he has some learning difficulties. All the telephone enquiries check out. Cell analysis has been done we are waiting for the report.
TL said he did contact someone after the accident. That person – we haven’t spoken to them. He wasn’t a friend of AB. Other individuals he has spoken to – we will find out over the next couple of days.
Ruth: I think it was DC- he was there.
Stewart Hill: TL left the car and goes back to the car and collects his stuff. He leaves and calls someone. We need to corroborate what he is saying.
1. The watch that AB is wearing – it is going to the specialists tomorrow – it stopped at 12.40 as he went into the water
2. A weather report has been requested. This is from the Environmental Agency. The current was not strong at that time. I am waiting for a report on this.
3. Cell set analysis – We are waiting for an analyst to put all the data together into a readable format. It’s a step by step process and the data coming through. We have a specialist working on this.
4. Diatoms Results – I’ll give you a copy – its inconclusive at the moment.
5. Toxicology Results – They are due back on 12th June – tomorrow
6. Histology Results – We are waiting for the results – haven’t got a timeline – need to chase it – this takes the longest. Then they can make an accurate assessment.
7. CCTV – Offer is there to view it in its entirety.
Alexandria: The CCTV list only includes 3(The Fox, Dadyals and …)There are 11 CCTVs. It can’t be that you have only picked him up on 3 CCTVs from 8.02pm to 3am.
Stewart Hill: TL confirms he was driving at speed.
Stewart Hill: No suspects – unexplained death. We can’t prove third party involvement – either way.
Stafford Scott: What is the criteria – in order for it to be treated as suspicious.
Stewart Hill: Intelligence/ evidence to prove third party involvement.
Ruth: Cant tests prove the jacket was there for hours? Why haven’t you gone down the lines of inquiry.
Stewart Hill: 8. We have been to Dadyals – Confirmed CCTV was working. This would confirm he was there. Another witness has come forward stating he knows AB and that he was there. Barry and Michael are witnesses.
Stewart Hill: You need to give us the contradictory information.
Ruth: We are not telling you because of the way you sent five officers to see someone in the gym. We are not telling Barry MaCarthy anything because of the way these people are getting treated.
Stafford Scott: The family has lost confidence – I think it is unfair to ask them to tell you this information.
Stewart Hill: There are a few lines of enquiry then we have nowhere else to go. We need to speak to the individuals if there is contrary evidence.
Stafford Scott: Tell us where you are going and what have you done.
Stewart Hill: 9. The car key has been tested and the car key fob is on its own there were no other keys(no house keys). We have found a bundle of cash on him.
10. We have a witness – a guy on the river boat – but he has picked a different location.
Actions have been taken to remove debris. We are waiting for the results on this.
We have a witness who heard the accident.
The local authority attended a different location – I am waiting for them to get back to me.
11. There are local environment officers testing the water.
12. The information from the coroner
AB goes missing on 24th January 2015
AB body is found on 22nd April 2015
The information has come from someone who is not attached to the investigation. It was the police patrol officer. The information has been directly given to the coroner. They typed up the paragraph which was used for the CT scan. The coroner has used this to open up his case file – we have now changed it as the information was wrong.
Stafford Scott: The patrol officer should have been given the correct information. Maybe you need to review that process. The minute he thought it could have been AB – It should have been the team that was dealing with it to contact the coroner – due to the distress it causes the family.
Stewart Hill: The initial call made to the coroner’s office had the correct details but we are learning from this. All the briefings given to the Coroner officer are different to that paragraph.
Stewart Hill: We weren’t aware about the incorrect information as it was never disclosed to us.
Ruth: Yes we have the paragraph – yes it is different.
Suresh Grover:We need to get 2 things sorted. The pathologist report – waiting for results
Request to view the CCTV
Further witness that TL spoke to
What about Ibs?
Stewart Hill: Yes we need to still talk to him.
Suresh Grover: Are there any further lines of enquiry? How does he get from the car to where his body was found.
Stewart Hill: We are not sure. We are using searches, CCTV, weather report, depth/flow of water from environmental agency which may assist how far he has travelled.
Suresh Grover: So we still don’t know where he enters the river.
Stewart Hill: I don’t know.
Suresh Grover: To treat it as suspicious – is there any circumstantial evidence of how AB ends up there.
Stewart Hill: There is no intelligence to confirm there is any third party involvement.
Suresh Grover: What are the parameters of your line of enquiry?
Stewart Hill: I can’t disclose this.
Suresh Grover: How can you discount – why it is not being treated as suspicious?
Victor O’lisa: We have to go on what we have – we are trying to give you as much information as possible. When the information comes in about the second accident. We need some intelligence to move us from an Unexplained death to a suspicious death. Then we could use this information as evidence.
Suresh Grover: From when AB was reported missing. It moved from medium to high after the jacket was found. Shouldn’t that create more lines of enquiry. The parameters of the search – the body was discovered just beyond this. The family were shouting about this. What are you doing apart from this? What about forensics from the car? I mean some of the information that has not been verified from the other witness – creates even more suspicion.
Stewart Hill: The car went to Perivale.
Alexandria: No, it went to C&S first then to Perivale. It was booked in as waiting for forensics and further investigations. This was at 4.05 on 24th January.
Stewart Hill: The car came a few days afterwards.
Suresh Grover: It said on the email that the car was clean(can’t get any forensics) – isn’t that suspicious? That there was no sign of AB/TL?
Stafford Scott: What does that mean – forensics – 1. Nothing at all or 2. Or just that there was no injury
Stewart Hill: Need to find out the date and time the forensics were carried out.
Chris: These things should have surely been looked into.
Stewart Hill: I don’t have the forensics report.
Victor O’lisa: Let’s get you the reports first. It is impossible for someone to wipe the whole car clean. We are trying to track all movements of the car.
Ruth Lovell: The wheel and number plate were both left at the scene.
Victor O’lisa: Have we followed a logical series of events. We need to go through all the information and what the review teams have gone through.
We can’t answer you here it wouldn’t be strictly accurate. Then we should be able to see where the gaps are.
Stafford Scott: You need to apologise to this family for the amount of upset and distress you have caused. A proper apology should be given – so we can build up the trust and respect.
Victor O’lisa: In regards to the second accident – the new information comes along and our desire was to keep you up to date. We gave the information sooner than we should have – it wasn’t verified it was our mistake. We will learn from that – in hindsight we apologise for that.
Apologise for creating that anxiety. At the early stages trying to give as much information as possible. The family are victims – it is not our intention to put officers which lead to a clash. We remove them if there is a clash. In early stages it obviously didn’t work – I had to get people in who have the skills i.e. Stewart Hill. That’s the level of interest I have put into this.
Chris: Two Questions:
1. You said the next thing to do – is to get it in the media – why are they not INVOLVED? – The public wouldn’t have heard who AB was.
2. Also on 24th January Ruth said she heard her son. You said you would look into these people – you never did. You said they will arrive in one hour but they didn’t turn up.
Ruth: You have stated the wrong information for the crash – it’s not Sedge Road – there will be no witnesses if it is the wrong location.
Alexandria: When AB was missing – you said until we have the body. Now that we have the body – why have we not moved forward but it is still unexplained.
Victor O’lisa: Until I have information to prove he is dead – I can’t say that until we had found his body.
Ruth: You ignored me and left me in the freezing cold for 3 days.
Victor O’lisa: No we didn’t.
Stafford Scott: This is how Ruth feels. How do we move forward?
Stewart Hill: 1. Documentation and the accurate information to be shared and the independent reviews.
Stafford Scott: Documentation needs to be sent to the solicitor – Christina.
Stewart Hill: CCTV can be viewed at the police station – part of the 50 hours. National Grid Tottenham Sub Station.
Ruth: When can we come in and see it?
Stewart Hill: We can definitely organise and facilitate this.
Ruth: I still feel I have no confidence even after hearing this. We have to do the work. Your investigations have not been great and you haven’t done much unless we give you the information.
Stafford Scott: Please just do what is necessary to get the families trust and confidence back otherwise we will not get anywhere.
Chris: Since ABs body has been found – we have been given no new information. We are on your side and we need your help – there have been no calls, no communications.
Stewart Hill: I haven’t got a problem updating you on a consistent basis.
I’m not giving you false hope – not intentionally.
I was going to tell you information which may not be verified – even when we found ABs body. I apologise for giving you the wrong information. We are always learning – everyone is different.
Suresh Grover: What needs to happen:
1. The substance of the inquiry needs to be open and transparent.
2. What happens after his body is found. When you use words such as ‘Unexplained’ and ‘Not suspicious’
3. You just need to recognise that the trust has broken down.
4. What are the key parameters?
Stafford Scott: Get an independent review and we can work from that. We will be able to see clearly what investigations have and should have been done.
Suresh Grover: There is limited capacity – the family aren’t here to be learning from – more demonstrating what has been done – so it is irrefutable.
Stewart Hill: Who should we contact?
Ruth: I don’t care.
Stafford Scott: Lets agree now – all contact should be through Christina. The legal stuff and Inquest information to go through family solicitor Christina.
Stewart Hill: If there are any developments I will make myself available.
Below are a number of transcripts which relates to other information/conversations that have taken part between the Metropolitan Police, The Monitoring Group, Perivale Police car pound, C and S and more …
Could I please, encourage you, to share my Youtube videos and blog via FB, Twitter and any other social media network you have an account with.
We have been struggling to get justice for 3 years and to bring this case to the attention of the wider media and general public, but, we have been blocked at every avenue, by the BBC and the Metropolitan Police to name just a couple of organisations. Re-tweeting and sharing this via social media, in the hope that it goes viral, is our last hope. It only takes a few seconds to do, but it would mean the World to us and, it could make all the difference regarding Ambroses’ case receiving the exposure it deserves. Please don’t do nothing, God forbid, you could find yourself in the same situation, which is something I wouldn’t wish on my worse enemy.
My Youtube channel is https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEJbObftneWPDbG2bg2VLcA/videos?view_as=subscriber
Thank you.
Alexandria xxx
The DISAPPEARANCE AND DEATH OF AMBROSE GARFIELD GENE BALL ... 