As with everything we state on this blog, all the statements can be backed up with further evidence in the way of emails, audio or visual recordings. In most cases this involves a combination of the aforementioned.

According to the evidence given at the inquest by the Landlord of the Fox, the  police seized all the CCTV footage,except the ones marked loss.  This  leaves us one obvious question,why did The Metropolitan Police refuse us permission to see the other cameras, while stating they never  had them?

The coroner insisted all the way through, even during the inquest, that we could see all the CCTV footage which related to incidences that were being referred to and yet, no matter how many times we said The Metropolitan Police were not allowing us to view them, these requests were left unfulfilled. 

Andrew Walker failed Ambrose and us as family members, by not ensuring that The Metropolitan Police followed his orders through.  He failed to let us view the evidence that The Metropolitan Police were using at the inquest and which were apparently, amongst Ambroses’ last  known movements. He allowed The Metropolitan Police to produce ‘facts’ without showing us any evidence to back these ‘facts’ up.  A very small selection of these are unseen footage of:

1)an earlier incident in The Fox which involved Ambrose and JB;

2)what happened to Ambrose once he disappeared behind the bar;

3)what happened to Ambrose in the corridor;

4)Ambrose coming back down Greens Lane, after we saw him running up towards the Police;

5)the fights Ambrose is said to have been involved in inside The Fox;

6)the number  of assaults that were supposed to have taken place that night;

7)Ambrose fighting with VG;

8)Ambrose on the fire escape;

9)Ambrose getting into his car in the environment described by witnesses and not an empty street;

10)Ambrose’s car parked in the place described by witnesses;

11)Ambrose driving into the car park as described by a witness and Victor O’lisa;

12)Ambrose leaning into his car through an open window after loosing his car keys, as described by 2 witnesses;

Most of the CCTV footage we have seen which shows Ambrose leaving and driving off in the BMW, show a very quiet street. There are no people about, apart from the odd passerby.  However according to witnesses the place was swarming with police, inside and out…

The Fox Public House was a place Ambrose visited frequently as he was seeing one of the barmaids there.  We believe the footage which shows Ambrose getting into the BMW was done on one of his many previous visits, as the jacket, trainers and jeans were Ambrose’s staple outfit, the only thing that really changed was his tee-shirt.

So to this day, we  have  still not seen what really happened to Ambrose inside the Fox and after he ran up Greens Lane. 

We have NEVER seen Ambrose come back down from where he ran towards the police (wearing just his jeans and trainers). Andrew Walker has believed everything the Metropolitan Police have said, without allowing us to see any of this evidence to back up the  claims of the Metropolitan Police. Andrew  Walker was made fully aware of all our concerns from May 2015 via numerous emails and Pre Inquest Hearings.

All Andrew Walker allowed to be shown during the inquest were the bits that confirmed what the Metropolitan Police said, and disproved what we were saying. Only twice did he allows us to see any of the points of the CCTV we wanted to see. We were unable to see/confirm the points we wanted confirming about what the Metropolitan Police were saying or, whether it was to confirm what we were saying. 

I thought a coroner/judge in a legal setting such as a court, were supposed to ensure that LIP’s were on, as near as possible, a level playing field to the ‘professionals’ in these situations. This obviously doesn’t apply inside Andrew Walkers court and, as for ‘cherry picking’ from the evidence, this is discussed here…

Below is the timeline of events that was given  to us by Sharon Freeman Woods at the viewing of the Compilation disc on the 16th April 2015, 6 days before Ambroses’ body was apparently  discovered …

Footage from Dadyals –
CAMERAS VIEWED 1, 5, 10
02:00:15 (real time 02:03:20 hrs) A man enters Dadyals.

02:01:08 (real time 02:04:13 hrs) A man is seen buying drinks.

02:02:20 (real time 02:05:25 hrs) Bald man is seen at the counter – He is wearing a white t-shirt and black trousers.

02:02:53 (real time 02:05:58 hrs) – A big bloke is buying something at counter and then leaves the shop.

02:05 – 02:07 (real time 02:08 – 02:10 hrs) Another person enters and leaves the shop. He is wearing a high viz jacket.

02:11:24 (real time 02:14:29 hrs) someone enters the shop with a dog – wearing a black hat and coat with fur around the hood.

02:16- 02:18 (real time 02:019 – 02:21 hrs) A man wearing a light coloured jacket enters and leaves the shop.

02:19 – 02:21 (real time 02:22 – 02:24 hrs) A man enters and leaves the shop. He is wearing dark clothing, with white writing on the top. He is wearing dark trainers with white sole.

02:28 (real time 02:31:18 hrs) – 2 men enter the shop. One is big and is wearing a grey tracksuit. The other man is thinner and has a white plaster on his nose. They appear to be buying a couple of bottles of beer.

02:28 – 02:29 (real time 02:31 – 02:32 hrs) – A man enters and leaves the shop after purchasing something.

02:31:58 – 02:32:58 (real time 02:35:03 – 02:36:03 hrs) Someone wearing a dark coloured top enters and leaves Dadyals.

02:33 :20 (real time 02:36:25 hrs) Barry re-enters the shop. IN GREY

02:35 (real time 02:38 hrs) – Someone else enters the shop.

02:34 (real time 02:37 hrs) – Someone enters Dadyals wearing a hi-vis jacket and carrying a JD sports bag.

02:38:40 (real time 02:41:45 hrs) – Man in dark top leaves after purchasing a number of items.

02:39 – 02:41:24 (real time 02:41 – 02:44:29 hrs) Someone enters and leaves Dadyals. He is wearing a number 72 rugby top/hoodie and black and white trainers.

02:48 (real time 02:51 hrs) Thaine enters Dadyals alone wearing a rucksack. The ruck sack is dark coloured with a stripe on either side (possibly hi-vis), on the back.

02:48:47 (real time 02:51:52 hrs) – Man enters Dadyals, dressed in dark clothing and holding an Adidas holdall.

02:54::06 – 02:54: 20 (real time 02:57:11 – 02:57:25 hrs) – Thaine re-enters the shop wearing a royal blue top with a white t-shirt underneath, a black jacket, trousers with either rips/design on the upper thigh of each leg and a pair of trainers with white soles.

02:54:55 (real time 02:58:00 hrs) – Ambrose enters Dadyals.

02:56:00 (real time 02:59:05 hrs) Ambrose leaves Dadyals.

02:56 (real time 02:59 hrs) – Ambrose is seen wiith a bunch of keys as he chats with Michael and Barry.

02:56:30 (real time 02:59:35 hrs) – Ambrose is seen wearing a white t-shirt.

02:58:04 (real time 03:01:09 hrs) – Ambrose leaves Dadyals with Thaine, Barry and Michael – they all seem to be in good spirits – chatting and laughing.

02:58 (real time 03:01 hrs) Barry re-enters the shop to buy something.

02: 59:04 (real time 03:02:09 hrs) – Ambrose leaves the screen. He turns right and then disappears from view.

The images below  were provided to us by Daniel Rosello, one of the detectives who sat in and controlled the CCTV viewing. According to Daniel  Rosello the cameras marked green were the only ones obtained by the Metropolitan Police, making  the rest of the  cameras unavailable for viewing.  

 Below are some areas which we photographed on a visit to the Fox public house, Palmers Green.  As you can see by the photographs we took, there are a number of cameras which are in the beer garden, however we didn’t get to see footage from any of them.

The Fox Public House – CCTV Footage of the movements in the car park:
System 1 – Camera 09 – 22:19 (real time 22:17:22 hrs) A red car pulls into the car park.

System 1 – Camera 09 – 22:58 (real time 22:56:22 hrs) JD walks across the car park.

System 1 – Camera 09 – 23:01 (real time 22:59:22 hrs) – PB walks across car park.

System 1 – Camera 09 – 23:02 (real time 23:00:22 hrs) JD walks back past camera 9 the car park.

System 1 – Camera 09 – 23:03 (real time 23:01:22 hrs) PB walks back past camera 9 the car park.

System 1 – Camera 09 – 23:13:19 (real time 23:11:41 hrs) – Car looks as though it could have been involved in an accident.

System 1 – Camera 09 – 23:14 (real time 23:12:22 hrs) A man in a hi-viz/light coloured jacket/gillet walks through the car park.

System 1 – Camera 09 – 23:23:34 – 23:28:08 (real time 23:21:56 – 23:26:30 hrs) A car is seen to park outside the car park for approx 5 minutes before driving off again.

System 1 – Camera 09 – 1:25:52 (real time 01:24:14 hrs) – A car enters the car park.

System 1 – Camera 09 – 23:07 – 23:09 (real time 23:05:22 – 23:07:22 hrs) A car is seen to stop outside the car park, before driving off a couple of minutes later.

System 1 – Camera 09 – 23:09 (real time 23:07:22 hrs) A group of people are seen to walk through the car park.

System 1 – Camera 09 – 1:02:04 (real time 01:00:26 hrs) – Alpesh’s car parks at the bottom of the alleyway, where the function room is.

System 1 – Camera 09 – 1:03:01 (real time 01:01:23 hrs) – Someone walks past the car park.

System 1 – Camera 09 – 1:11:09 (real time 01:09:31 hrs) – A car comes up Green Lane and enters the car park.

System 1 – Camera 09 –  1:13:13 (real time 01:11:35 hrs) – 2 people are seen walking across the car park, down Greens Lane towards the High Road.

System 1 – Camera 09 – 1:25:44 (real time 01:24:06 hrs) – A man drives into the car park. 1:26:18 – Gets out of his car. At 1:26:31 (real time 01:24:53 hrs) the man leaves the car park and disappears down Greens Lane.

System 1 – Camera 09 – 1:29:23 (real time 01:27:45 hrs) – 2 men walks up Green Lane. 1 walks into car park, while the other one continues to walk straight up Greens Lane.

System 1 – Camera 09 – 1:30:02 (real time 01:28:24 hrs) – A white car leaves the car park and turns right, heading towards high road.

System 1 – Camera 09 – 1:30:30 (real time 01:28:52 hrs) A car comes up Greens Lane, enters the car park. It turns around and then goes back into the main road, heading towards the High Road.

System 1 – Camera 09 – 1:31:31 (real time 01:29:53 hrs) – A man with white body warmer walks across car park.

System 1 – Camera 09 – 1:31:18 (real time 01:29:50 hrs) – Another male with a light coloured t-shirt runs into car park.

System 1 – Camera 09 – 1:31 (real time 01:29:22 hrs) – A group of men are seen in the car park. It’s not clear enough to see what’s going on.

System 1 – Camera 09 – 1:33:06 (real time 01:31:28 hrs) A car is going back and forward in the car park.

System 1 – Camera 09 – 01:34: (real time 01:32:22 hrs) – A large group of people are seen fighting in the car park .

System 1 – Camera 09 – 01:35:11 (real time 01:33:33 hrs) – A man with a red jumper on is seen in the car park.

System 1 – Camera 09 – 01:36:45 (real time 01:35:07 hrs) A man wearing a white body warmer (white dark top underneath) is seen in car park.

System 1 – Camera 09 – 01:39:04 (real time 01:37:26 hrs) A man appears to be agitated in the car park. He goes to a car and opens the door. He appears to be wiping something from/off his face. He continues to wandering around his car.

System 1 – Camera 09 – 01:43:36 (real time 01:41:58 hrs) Lights go on a car from the road side according to garden camera and drives off at 01:44:05 (real time 01:42: 27 hrs) .

Could I please, encourage you, to share my Youtube videos and blog via FB, Twitter and any other social media network you have an account with.  

We have been struggling to get justice for 3 years and to bring this case to the attention of the wider media and general public, but, we have been blocked at every avenue, by the BBC and the Metropolitan Police to name just a couple of organisations. Re-tweeting and sharing this via social media, in the hope that it goes viral, is our last hope.

It only takes a few seconds to do, but it would mean the World to us and, it could make all the difference regarding Ambroses’ case receiving the exposure it deserves. Please don’t do nothing, God forbid, you could find yourself in the same situation, which is something I wouldn’t wish on my worse enemy.

My Youtube channel is https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEJbObftneWPDbG2bg2VLcA/videos?view_as=subscriber

Thank you.

Alexandria xxx

As with everything we state on this blog, all the statements can be backed up with further evidence in the way of emails, audio or visual recordings. In most cases this involves a combination of the aforementioned.

This is the transcript which was taken from the recording at the morgue. The people involved in this conversation are DSI Stewart Hill, Barry McCarthy, Ruth aka Toni, Chris and Alexandria aka Gina…Transcript starts at 1 hours and 13 minutes …

 

 
Chris: Here we go…
Hill: Ruth, Alex?
Toni: Hello.
Hill: Okay? We are just going to bring you through now okay. 
Chris: Thank you very much.
Hill: Do you want to come through this way please? 
Chris: (inaudible)
Hill: Do you’s want to take a seat?
Toni: What here?
Hill: Yes, wherever you feel comfortable yourself. Okay, erm, sorry for the delay to begin with, but as you can understand I’ve been quite busy today.  So when I took the call from Suresh my officers arranged to come down here straight down okay. Erm it’s your legal entitlement as I said to Suresh to view the body okay, That’s okay Chris, it’s either before the post mortem or after the post mortem, It’s your decision okay. I will say too you okay, I will be open and candid with you okay, I would advise against it at this stage! Okay, but it is your right, it is your right and I respect that.
Toni: Why? What would be different at any other stage?
Hill: Because, what will? What will happen is they will prepare, the body that we have they will prepare that body for the post mortem. The body is not prepared. The body has literally been lifted from a river, and it’s been in a river for a significant amount of time. There’s a significant amount of debris, decomposition as well, that it’s obviously that would take place as a result of a body been in a river for a certain amount of time. The body has literally been lifted, it’s been wrapped and it’s brought to the mortuary, and that is the condition the body is in! And I can tell you now, I can tell you now because I haven’t seen the body, literally I’ve seen photographs of the crime scene you will not be able to make identification, a visual identification. Clothing, there is still clothing on the body, but nothing has been removed from the body, the body has not been touched at all and that would not happen until tomorrow. So that is when obviously the process of the post mortem starts, so I’ve got to tell you that Alex, I’ve got to tell you that Ruth okay. Because it would be remiss of me if I didn’t, so, but it’s your decision and that’s why I am here. I’m sure that we’ve got a member of staff here now to be able to facilitate it for you but, but I warn you now that there hasn’t been any cleansing of the body at all okay which would be the case if it was after the post mortem
Toni: We were just told that you’ve had it since the 19th , you’ve had Ambrose.
Gina: Yes that’s what we just been told.
Chris: Yesterday.
Hill: Who told you that?
Toni: Somebody’s just informed ******** who was in, who was court.

Hill: Who’s *******?
Toni: ******** in *******.
Hill: No no no.
Toni: He’s just called me, he just called me.
Gina: He heard it from police officers on Tuesday.
Hill: No, No the first, the first call that I made was to you Alex so that’s, that’s the first port of call.
Gina: Okay.
Hill: Then obviously I rang you back an hour later.
Gina: Yes.
Hill: You told me to speak to Suresh. Other members of the family okay, were not contacted okay, until after I had spoken to you.
Toni: ***** was contacted the night before.
Gina: What about *****?
Hill: After.
Chris: No yesterday.
Hill: No after l …
Toni: They just told us it was the day before.
Hill: No after, after because I specifically, because you gave instructions didn’t you? Yeah?
Toni: Yeah.
Hill: We followed those instructions, nobody was contacted until after we had spoken to you, okay?
Chris: (inaudible)
Chris: Did you go yourself?
Hill: No no I dispatch the police from my office.
Chris: Right.
Hill: After I’d spoken to you. Because that was, that was the agreement and I wanted to make sure that you were the first person, first people that were told.
Gina: So why did ***** get to see the photographs before Ruth?
Hill: No ones seen the photographs.
Male: no ones seen photographs.
Gina: but she told us she has.
Toni: No she said the clothes were described to her.
Hill: The clothes (inaudible) he’s wearing clothes, we haven’t touched the body, that will happen tomorrow.
Toni: Was he wearing a jacket?
Hill: Erm he’s not wearing a jacket is he?
Barry: Yes he is.
Barry: The same that’s in the CCTV at Dadyals.
Gina: The River Island jacket?
Toni: So he’s got the clothes, the River Island jacket on?
Barry: No, no the jacket, the coat that is on the Dadyals CCTV that is what the body is wrapped in.
Toni: So he’s got the jacket on then?
Barry: The jacket, the one he was wearing in Dadyals yes.
Toni: So he’s got it on?
Barry: The jeans and the trainers.
Gina: Okay.
Hill: What you’ve got to appreciate, what you’ve got to appreciate the clothing has been in water, dirty stagnant water for a long period of time okay. So we are not really going to know for sure exactly what it is until. There are certain elements of clothing that are distinctive, that have kept their identity. For instance, the trainers okay, they are very distinctive, the belt is very distinctive but the I’m sorry having to describe this to you but it’s very difficult to describe unless you’ve actually.
Chris: Well was he wearing his watch was his watch on?
Barry: You cant tell.
Hill: You cant tell, you can’t tell. So its, so its, I’ve got to go outside in a minute to speak to a couple of people outside okay, so have a discussion amongst yourself. You can or you don’t have to it’s up to you but I would advise you Ruth no, but I understand what your needs are as well so it’s a matter for yourself. So if I can leave you for a couple of minutes just to make, have that discussion is that okay Alex?
Gina: Yes.
Hill: Yeah I’ll go outside, I’ll come back if you say yes we wanna do it we will do it it will only take 5 minutes just to prepare. Obviously we’ve got to remove the body, get it in a position where it can be viewed, if not we can come back again tomorrow after the post mortem where the body will be in a better condition because it would have been cleaned so it’s a complete.
Chris: Will you be able to see the whole body then? After the post mortem, without the clothes?
Hill: There is, there is not a whole body, so it, it’s difficult to describe. I haven’t seen the body itself but the bodies been in water for 3, well for some time. 
Chris: You’re going to do, going to DNA, not DNA your going to do…
Toni: Fingerprints?
Chris: Fingerprint test aren’t you?
Gina: That’s what the coroners told us. 
Toni: Becky said.
Gina: They’ve told us that your going to identify him by fingerprints and we don’t understand that because if he that badly decomposed.
Hill: With all due respect, with all due respect to Becky okay. Becky isn’t an investigator okay, she’s a corners’ officer and she hasn’t seen.
Toni: Yeah she said that.
Hill: I’m telling you now there will be no fingerprints.
Toni: But you haven’t seen him either.
Hill: I’ve seen…
Toni: No you haven’t seen Ambrose’s body.
Hill: Ambrose’s?
Toni: Body.
Hill: No. I’ve seen photographs. I’ve seen crime scene photographs, I’ve seen. The fact that I’ve seen, but I haven’t actually seen the body in person but I’ll tell you now the identification is more than likely to come from DNA. So DNA will have to be extracted tomorrow. The DNA will have to be then compared to the DNA that we have got and that takes 48 hours.
Chris: So then, what day is it tomorrow? So will we know Saturday then?
Gina: No Monday, Monday
Hill: It will be confirmed on Sunday, It may well be, it may well be. It may well be that when they remove the clothing, okay which is going to be difficult within its self. There may be a mark on the body that may be visible for instance, a tattoo?
Toni: The leg.
Hill: Or a leg that we might be able to you know so we are almost 100% sure now that this is Ambrose but it might not be the case I don’t know. 
Chris: Because he…
Hill: The body is covered in debris.
Chris: The autopsy that your going to be doing is that going to include all like if he been hit and things like that, is I going to be a full?
Hill: There’s 2 types we do. We do what we call a standard post mortem ok which is where there are no other surrounding circumstances but we give rise to any foul play or any third party involvement. Where we are unsure whether there’s been any third party involvement or foul play we have a special post mortem. We have a specially qualified pathologist. That is why we haven’t been able to get it done straight away. OK. He will come here. Will it be done here?
Barry: Yes.
Hill: Yes it will be done here and that special post mortem is a thorough post mortem, where you know they will seek to identify the cause of death er and …
Toni: If he’s body is so decomposed can they do that?
Hill: They can, they can …
Toni: So can they tell me if he’s drowned or not?
Hill: They can, they can in certain circumstances, Now i’m not a pathologist but in my 21 years I’ve been to a few post mortems and I know within a certain degree what they can do and what they cant do. So in certain circumstances they can and sometimes they can’t but it really depends. I don’t know how long that particular body has been in the river, I don’t know how long its been er, the type of river whether the waters moving or its stagnant obviously does play its part in it as well. There are certain factors that have got to be taken into consideration, you know. If there’s obvious signs of third party involvement i.e foul play i.e. there’s a, a …
Toni: Injury
Hill: Yeah, there is …
Chris: Crushed skull or
Hill: Fractured skull or there’s broken bones they will be able to identify that so then we know that there’s other issues that we need to investigate. But sometimes because of the length of time its been, its taken, obviously for the body to be found, that they may inhibit certain lines of enquiry that the pathologist may follow but I think that’s something that, this is ifs or buts we don’t know yet because we have to wait for the pathologist to start and have a look at what he or she has got, well it’s a he in this case tomorrow okay?
Chris: What Chapman?
Hill: No it was Chapman
Toni: Chapman or, its Ian somebody?
Hill: No no its Paul, it was Chapman but that was today but he has got others and It was going to take to long and would have gone into the evening and it just would not have been appropriate for that. So we’ve got another one, he’s going to do it.
Toni: so there’s only about 5 of them in this country?
Hill: I’m not sure how many there is, I think there is about 14 but not really that many of them.
Gina: So the reason Chapman didn’t do it is because he couldn’t do it today?
Barry: Because he had others to do.
Toni: Yeah and we.
Gina: So it’s actually getting done tomorrow, so why couldn’t Chapman still do it then?
Hill: Well because there’s, he’s obviously, I don’t know what whether its, whether its, he’s day in court or not, I don’t know, but we’ve got a pathologist. He couldn’t do it today, but he was the pathologist on call today, couldn’t do it today because he had others but we’ve got one tomorrow and its been booked in at 12 o’ clock. 
Chris: How long does it normally take?
Hill: Quite a long time, a number of hours.
Chris: So there should be a good view tomorrow of what were looking at, late afternoon?
Hill: Yeah. Early evening. Yeah, yeah but you’ll be contacted. You will be contacted as soon as we.
Toni: So obviously I don’t want to see him if its all debris goes without saying I want to see him cleaned up. I can’t; I won’t have that out my head.
Chris: That’s the thing.
Hill: And that’s the thing, that’s the concern, that is the concern because you know.
Toni: If it’s going to improve me looking at him then I’ll wait until he’s cleaned up.
Gina: It’s worth the 24 hours wait to be honest.
Toni: Yeah.
Gina: Can we just look at the clothes just by the photos?
Toni: He hasn’t got them.
Gina: We are, because we were supposed to look at them tonight.
Toni: Are we still having a meeting tonight?
Hill: Well that’s up to you.
Chris: Yeah yeah the clothes the clothes and all that.
Barry: No no no I suggest not to look at the photos because it’s exactly the same. The photos  will be the same as looking at the body, just it’s the same coming out of the river.
Toni: Okay.
Hill: So, It’s the body is face down.
Toni: Have you seen them?
Barry: Pardon?
Toni: Have you seen them?
Barry: Yes.
Hill: The bodies face down, okay we can’t move the body, we can’t move the body okay, so if you was to view the body tonight it will be face down, face down. We can’t move the body. Mikes not in the position to be able do that tonight, it will take a specialist to be able to do that. So.
Gina: It’s better to clean him do you know what I mean?
Toni: I’m sorry we’ve dragged you out.
Hill: That’s alright, not a problem.
Chris: See the thing is if we could have had someone come around and explain everything exactly to come around, the same as you are rather than over the phone because, you don’t get a lot over the phone you know?
Hill: Yep, yep.
Chris: Where as if you came around and explained it could have probably saved a bit of a journey.
Hill: Yesterday I made myself available to come around, I would have come around this morning but what obviously happened this morning, the reason I didn’t I do it this morning is because I was under the impression the PM was going to be this afternoon. So we’ve got to do certain things in place to facilitate the post mortem but I didn’t find out until this afternoon that it was, its not going to be, cant fit it in its going to be tomorrow. So effectively we’ve done what we need to do and we are now free now because we expected to be working now so, you know. We can, if you want to meet earlier at Sureshs’. I’ve spoken to him today he said we can do that.
Toni: Okay.
Gina: Well hold on, how do I put it, we’ve just been advised the photos are not being any good, is there any point doing that meeting? 
Toni: Because that’s what its about.
Gina: Its about the photos and that isn’t it?
Toni: And if you’re saying it’s like looking at the body now then.
Hill: Is there anyway, any photographs that we can show?
Toni: Edible, not edible, not eaten.
Barry: There’s one photo of the trainers.
Toni: And I can see and.
Hill: That you can see.
Toni: Nah, but I wouldn’t be able to recognise the trainers.
Gina: They could be anyone’s couldn’t they?
Toni: Yeah, yeah.
Barry: Yeah I just think its just not, I don’t think it’s appropriate to show those photos at this stage.
Hill: You see visually, visually you will not be able to identify that body, you will not be able to. 
Toni: Okay.
Chris: So he was face down in the river? When they found him?
Hill: When they found him? When they found him yes.
Chris: So you just picked it up (inaudible) So he’s how he was basically.
Hill: Yes.

Barry: So everything that’s around the body is also taken out of the water as well, so all debris and twigs.
Toni: How far was it?
Gina: How far was it from the helicopter search and fingertip search and POLSA search and all that? How far was because the helicopters were out within 40 minutes of that car accident?
Hill: Yeah, yeah.
Gina: They would have, sorry this is our view. They would have found him if he was at that river you would have found him. Number 2 the fact that, you know he did have a jacket on. We knew that wasn’t his jacket.
Hill: I think if we can answer if I showed you the map, you would see and you would probably draw your own conclusions as to potentially why, if it is him why he is where he was found.
Gina: Well I’m not being horrible the only reason the focus was on that river was because of Darrens’ jacket. 
Hill: Exactly.
Gina: The fact is as you told us at the last weeks meeting that jacket was put in the back of that boot by Darren. Now everyone’s trying to make us believe that Ambrose left his phone in the car but went to the trouble to go to the back of that car, got his jacket out, after a crash we are talking, get out open that boot take his jacket out, close the boot, run down an alley, drop a jacket he didn’t even need, sorry we’re not buying it
Hill: Yeah, yeah.
Toni: And then be so happy at Dadyals.
Gina: We’ve seen it.
Toni: How can he be all that happy after all them fights?
Gina: On Monday at the meeting you said at five to three Inspector Wise upped that to a medium Yep? 
Hill: Yep.
Gina: But you didn’t receive the call until 15.48 from Alpesh stating he found the jacket so how is that possible?
Hill: Yeah, yeah.
Toni: There’s a lot that don’t make sense.
Hill: I hear what your saying but when, when we show you the map, when we show you the map of where the jacket was found okay. 
Gina: But why (inaudible) why the jacket?
Hill: You know the river, you know the river that we looked at that we looked at, remember when we went down there we looked at the river.
Chris: Yeah by the bypass.
Hill: It wasn’t that river.
Chris: Your on about the one near the canal then you’ve got the river afterwards. Your on about the river afterwards?
Toni: Yes the one I was worried about.
Chris: If you walk along the edge of the canal you’ve got the river one side and the canal the other side?
Hill: Is that right.
Barry: Its actually Pymmes Brook and then the next one is the River Lea and then River Lea navigation, that’s what is says on the map its River Lea Navigation that the body was found in.
Hill: Its gone further from where that jacket was and that further across.
Toni: That’s the one I said.
Barry: Every third stretch of water.
Hill: And the route of that river.
Toni: Expands and opens.
Toni: That’s what I was worried about.
Hill: It doesn’t meet the one where the jacket was, until a hell of a long way down so it’s a completely separate.
Chris: We always thought the jacket was planted anyway.
Hill: Yeah.
Chris: When we got there er the jacket was…
Toni: Was dry.
Chris: Apparently it had supposedly been there 3 days it was bone dry it had been frosty all night the jacket had been bone dry…
Toni: Its pouring, it’s horrible.
Chris: There was no slug trails which we’d expect being raining 3 days.
Hill: Here’s a possible explanation here as to where he is now okay but lets wait and see what happens at the post mortem we haven’t got all information and this is, to us, for us this is the most important part for us because this gives us the indication of whether there was any over foul play, yeah.
Stewart Hill takes a phone-call.
Toni: He looks a bit like Bruce Forsythe from the side don’t he?
Barry: (inaudible)
Gina: Nah he’s not that bad.
Chris: When the accident was reported we insisted that they searched the River Lea and they turned around and said…
Toni: Wouldn’t have gone that far.
Chris: Nah he wouldn’t have, something like he wouldn’t have gone that far and we can’t do it unless we got more…
Toni: More evidence…
Chris: Evidence to prove he’s gone that far.
Barry: They go on certain pointers see because they would say well if, how far do you expect us, that’s what the search team would say.
Chris: The thing is you got to think when you say you’ve got a car, even if it was Ambrose’ car I don’t believe that was Ambrose in that car.
Hill: Yeah.
Chris: But even if it was Ambrose in that car you’ve then got to think well then okay add that to the(inaudible) drunk or whatever How far can he get in two hours and then you do your search for that you don’t like just around the car which is what they’ve done. Three days the only search party was from family.
Hill: Obviously we can go through that with you I mean its not its detailed searching so you know, what they’ve got to do, what they do search they’ve got to search properly so they cant search something with the chances of them missing something. See if they miss something it just don’t move forward and then, subsequently if something turns out they know that it’s been a faulty investigation because they should have found something. I mean there’s been examples of that there has been examples of it so it isn’t within the search parameters And we went back down there to discuss it but that’s something that we can go through with you and id like to go through that with you with Maps because you know.
Chris: For me if they turn around and say they have a helicopter out within 2 hours after that car was reported missing, reported crashed er I think …
Toni: You would have found him.
Chris: I thought it was 2 hours?
Hill: I think it was 20 minutes.
Toni: An hour yeah 20 minutes.
Gina: The helicopter was up by 3.40 and that’s within half an hour.
Hill: And we’ve had a discussion about it, I’m not going to commit myself to anything because I don’t know what’s going to come out of this okay. But the fact that that helicopter was up early okay, search lights, noise, he would have known.
Toni: Body heat as well.
Hill: He would know, before that, before that Ruth. You can hear the bloody thing especially at night time so and if you’ve just crashed a car okay, you’ve had a drink or whatever you’ve abandoned that car and you hear the police helicopter go up and you see the spot light going down you know the chances are he’s…
Toni: Going to hide.
Hill: He’s not going to sit there is he and wait to be found is he? Let’s just wait and see.
Chris: Okay then so that’s 20 minutes.
Hill: Its less than that Chris, I haven’t got the, I think they was up in 15 minutes I think, something like that. 
Gina: When we checked, it was up there at 3.40.
Hill: I think they were already up and I think they’ve just come over. It was a, it was a , it was a good response and it was a quick response than we would normally expect actually so they were probably already up dealing with something else so er lets see what comes out from the the the…
Chris: Post mortem.
Hill: Yeah the PM er then we can go from there look I’m going to, I’m going to speak to a couple of people outside that are waiting and er I’ve got some police officers here because I didn’t want you just turning up and waiting outside and nobody being here. I’m just going to speak with them. Make your decision.
Toni: Er I think we’ve made it, I think we’ve made it.
Chris: You might see Clare outside shes with the, she’s independent from the BBC but they are doing a program in September er for er this sort of thing. So this isn’t something you think about immediately, this is something that.
Hill: I hope Surseh has provided you this information because I’ve spoken to Suresh and I’ve told him that you know, you’re not going to be able to identify him, you’re not going to be able to identify him, you’re not that is that is, you’re not going to be able to do that because of the condition of the body you know and …
Chris: He did but he turned around and said we’d advise you not to but…
Hill: It’s your legal right, it’s your legal right and we can’t take that away from you but I, as a police officer, you know am just advising you, not even as police officer but somebody that’s seen that body, I’m advising you no. If you can, wait until tomorrow. That would be the best time for you
Toni: Yeah
Barry: Yes most defiantly
Hill: At least, at least the body as it is will be cleaned it is you know.
Chris: Well can you suggest for tomorrow yeah if you got, find that there’s markings there, tattoos on the body or on the knee, a scar is it on the knee?
Toni: On his right knee where he had a operation. It goes from here to here.
Chris: That’s why he’s got.
Toni: That’s why he’s got that limp, one of his legs was in traction for three months, no from here to here from his knee bone to connect because his knee disconnected from his…
Chris: And his got tattoos…
Toni: And he was on a traction for three months…
Chris: A body on his arm…
Toni: And it’s a very very thick thick scar.
Gina: Even if they can’t see physically they will be able to with bones.
Toni: He was on a traction for three months.
Barry: What was injured was it cartridge or was it…
Toni: Erm the knee came away, literally the year the ambulances were on strike.
Barry: How old was he when he had that?
Toni: What the year the ambulances were on strike? Boxing Day.
Barry: It would be (inaudible).
Toni: 15 years.
Chris: Cover the rest of the body and just leave that identifiable so Ruth could identify it through that way? Then she doesn’t have to see anything else.
Hill: Yeah.
Chris: Do you understand what I mean? If it’s going to be that bad.
Hill: Yeah, it is and we will do what we can, erm Barry will clean it and Barry will obviously speak to the pathologist and the technician that we’ve here to ensure got to make sure you know. What can be viewed.
Barry: Did he have tattoos on his legs?
Toni: No because he had one massive tattoo on his sorry …
Toni: On his right side just done of a woman, of a Mexican type woman.
Barry: Quite a large one?
Toni: Yeah took up all up this side. His got loads, his got one on his neck but its not Legend he covered up the word Legend with a rose but it looks like a load of ink has been slapped on his neck.
Barry: So a Mexican lady on the right side.
Toni: Yeah.
Barry: Of the torso.
Toni: Yeah, all the way down, covers the whole side.
Stewart Hill takes a phone call …
Barry: Any other sort of larger ones?
Toni: No that’s Jonathon, that’s Jonathon.
Barry: (inaudible).
Toni: Yeah his got something on his back, his arm was covered.
Barry: (inaudible)
Toni: Yeah his arm was covered.
Barry: So any other sort of operation that he’s had?
Toni: Nah only that knee one.
Barry: So the knee operations?
Toni: Yeah he was in traction for three months in hospital and his leg is slightly shorter, maybe an inch shorter.
Barry: Right okay, what about any gold teeth?
Toni: No.
Barry: That’s fine.
Hill: What was the watch? What was the watch he had on?t
Toni: It was the 25th November.
Barry: Do you know which wrist he wore the watch on?
Toni: His left.
Hill: What was it a leather strap watch or…
Toni: No gold.
Gina: Gold it was all gold. Gold face with a gold strap?
Chris: And I think it was like a pink.
Toni: Yeah sort of rose colour, rose colour.
Hill: What was the make of it do you know?
Toni: 25th anniversary it was called.
Gina: Anniversary Royal Oak or something like that.
Hill: That might still be on.
Barry: Well er yeah.
Hill: If its metal strap and that.
Barry: Er yeah.
Gina: And we also know that he had £400 pound on him, so hopefully that will…
Toni: Yeah in his pocket.
Barry: Obviously we’ve not checked the pockets or anything.
Gina: Okay.
Hill: So that’s all done here we don’t. The body gets lifted straight from the water and then we have to take it as it comes (inaudible) erm the body was found just by a worker walking along checking the river at about twenty to three.
Toni: Twenty to three in the morning.
Hill: No it was environmental agency staff checking the water.
Barry: Its not an area where people walk.
Gina: It was a chance.
Hill: There’s photographs of the body in the water you know, I probably wouldn’t have picked it up. Amongst the surface debris in the water.
Toni: Which I thought would have happened further up.
Hill: well when you look at it you’ll think well I cant see how he fell but he did. Unfortunately erm but obviously it took some time to get the body out of the water, because it was in water it takes you know it takes time to remove the body from the position it has been in for some time.
Toni: But we don’t know for sure how long until tomorrow.
Hill: But they’ll put you, know we don’t know how long. I mean they might be able to give an estimate but its, I think it will be pretty difficult. It will be difficult to be precise on that sort of thing.
Gina: Yes.
Chris: So he was probably half in and half out of the water
Hill: Fully in the water but the back, the bum was just above the …
Barry: All that was visible was the back.
Hill: Fully in the water but the back , the bum…

Gina: Half in half out?

Hill: Was sort of above was the vessel was so that’s.

Hill: All: that is visible is the back and from the bum the area.

Gina: So yeah that’s what we meant.

Hill: That that’s all.

Hill: Yeah so so not half from there and half its.

Gina: That’s what we thought.. Yeah.

Hill: But that could change depending on the tide of the water and everything so it’s… You know.

Chris: Alright, in your experience.

Toni: It’s him.

Chris: You’ve obviously seen seen a body in the morgue… Does it look like it’s been in there for three months.

Toni: Oh I no.

Hill: It looks like it’s been in there for a long time.

Chris: Oh.

Hill: There’s a lot of.

Chris: You don’t think he could of been somewhere else and then dumped there later.

Hill: Well will.

Chris: You’ll find that out.

Hill: Yeah, yeah, there’s one question I will be asking the pathologist is, is now can we tell whether that body is drowned.

Chris: Yeah.

Hill: Or if that body was dead before it went in there.

Gina: Yeah.
Hill: And under certain circumstances they can ah but because of the length of time that body may be in there that be compromised so it’s will have to wait and see will have to wait and see but that be one of the questions we’re ask.
Chris: One of the saving graces is probably was cos he was cold if he was only wearing a t-shirt or something it might not of been.

Hill : Yeah…….. Alright then.

Toni: So will hear from you for tomorrow.

Hill: Yep your hear from Barry tomorrow ah.

Barry: What about tomorrow?

Toni: My number.

Hill: You want us to go for Suresh or do you want us to.

Toni: Direct, I’ve already told that Becky as well direct to me.

Hill: Okay.

Toni: Please.

Hill: What stage is that then Ruth.

Toni: All stages now.

Hill: Okay, alright.. So so what’s the likely hood contact tomorrow then Barry will be.

Toni: Will confirm that if he’s still having a meeting tonight… I’ll confirm that with Suresh.

Gina: Well we don’t need the meeting tonight do we?

Toni: Nah we don’t need it..

Gina: Well.

Toni: No we don’t.

Gina: We don’t need it.

Toni: No we don’t need tonight then.

Gina: Because it was really around photos and…

Hill: Yeah.

Gina: What we discussed here really isn’t it.

Hill: Yeah that’s.

Gina: Yeah, so.

Toni: So leave tonight then.

Gina: What’s the point of having it really cos we’re gonna go through that tomorrow may as well just…

Toni: Yeah leave it.

Gina: leave it now and deal with that.

Toni: Take it from tomorrow.

Gina: That’s what will do.

Hill: So should I take a number.

Toni: Says number.

Chris: Do you want the house number just in case you can’t get anything?

Toni; Yeah.

Chris: And the house number will be – says number.

Hill: Now tomorrow okay

Barry: I think: should I put a call into you just before we start.

Toni: No when we can come and view.

Hill: Right what I’ve got is an estimated time… I’ll let you know.

Chris: Yeah.

Toni: Yeah please.

Chris: Than you can turn…

Everyone speaks at the same here is hard to pin point what is said

Toni: Oh yeah.

Gina: We can’t, we won’t be able do get down here till about two anyway.

Barry: No it won’t be.

Gina: Ah okay.

Hill : If we’re gonna be realistic about this ok tomorrow is going to be obviously a full day for everybody it’s gonna be an emotional day for yourself ah…. Barry has things to due obviously during the course of the postmortem and I’ve got other officers here that that obviously they have roles they got to perform during the postmortem…. Your then do the viewing after the postmortem ok… Barry will be on hand I’m not gonna be here tomorrow evening but I’m back on Monday alright now the DNA will be taken – if they can get DNA which ah you know ah… I’ve seen DNA retracted from bodies that have been dead along time a lot longer then then.

Toni: They do it with dinosaurs.

Hill: In certain circumstances….. Without speaking to the pathologist… I’m trusting the lads gonna be the work going forward… So that will be taken for examination and comparison with the DNA that we’ve got, so we’re looking for potential Sunday.. Sunday for the identification to be confirmed okay so you will get ah your either get a phone call confirming it or you get a call saying we’re still waiting for it, it was due but we’re still waiting for it to be done cos it goes off to an laboratory in Birmingham it’s not a police laboratory it’s an independent laboratory that does it that is contacted by the police okay so we’re really, ah, ah, they give it to, but their telling us 48 hours so once that’s done you will be informed ah and, then I think potentially I think the best time for us to meet will probably be Monday ah and I’ll speak to Suresh about it maybe that’s something we can probably arrange or get something in place so then we’ve all made an assessment of what we’ve got, what the situation is and then we can come together and we can go go from there is that okay Ruth?

Toni: Yeah that’s fine.

Hill: Otherwise what happens, as I’ve been in this situation before, you know everyone is going to emotional charged, your going to have 100 and one things your want to ask, your forget that cause your emotionally charged and it’s not productive at all.

Gina: Yep.

Hill: Let’s deal with things

Toni: It’s the best that.

Gina: For everybody.

Chris: I don’t know it (inaudible).

Hill: Is that alright.

Toni: Yeah.

Hill: Yeah.

Toni: Okay.

Chris: Hopefully tomorrow you might get an identification without doing the DNA.

Gina: No your still have to do that anyway won’t you.

Barry: Yeah.

Toni: Well.

Gina: Legally to make sure.

Hill: Nah sometimes you can do it but i not relying on that at all.

Chris:  Yeah yeah.

Hill: So I’m not relaying on that at all, but you know we don’t know, we don’t know, there might be something in his pocket with his name on it, I don’t know.

Gina: Yeah.

Hill: Because when we had a look.

Barry: What hospital did he have the operation at?

Toni: Guys hospital.

Barry: About fifteen years ago?

Toni: Yeah roughly.

Chris: Did he have any Metal put in his knee or anything?

Toni: No not… Yeah I think it was on a traction and it had to be pulled you know stretched.

Barry: What these operations.

Toni: Yeah and he was on traction for three months it wasn’t a little thing.

Gina: yeah.

Barry: So that should be something should be able to determine the.

Toni: Oh God defiantly.

Hill: Have we got disclosure as a verbal agreement at all?

Barry: No I don’t think so.

Hill: I’ll have to speak to Sharon about that did you sign anything Ruth?

Toni: Nothing at all

Hill: Okay, we might not need it but if we do apologise for, make a note if there is and then we get the records he’s medical records and do a comparison…

Toni: Yeah.

Hill: That is one way……. That’ll probably be quicker anyway, but it’s you know will have to wait and see as we go forward, but personally I think you’ve made the right decision.

Toni: Okay.

Hill: You made the right decision… So Erm and hopefully tomorrow your a lot clearer is to… Yeah okay so is there anything else you wanna ask me now I know without the meeting tonight but is there anything you want to ask me?

Toni: Do you think it’s him?

Hill: Do I think it’s him? I, on the clothing, on clothing, from what I’ve seen on the CCTV. erm and the thing that’s been described to him and the clothing he’s said to be wearing. Erm based upon probably his trainers which are very distinctive, I’m surprised he still go his trainers on to be fair, the, the, you know as I’ve describe it, as almost certainly, almost certainly however…

Gina: Yeah?

Hill: I’m sure there just not one pair of trainers made.

Chris: We still need to have a meeting because we would still like to see the CCTV you can see it.

Barry: Yeah that’s all ready.

Hill: We had all that we had all that for you, was we meant to meeting today.

Toni: But it was Suresh, for some reason he cancelled it because he said he tried to get hold of you and you were on two days training.. You were on training.

Gina: You won’t return his calls.

Hill: I was training I was training but we still pencilled in for the meeting but the trading was two days ago so.

Barry: The CCTV we can watch on the DVD player right that first quicker.

Gina: That’s what I said to you.

Chris: Yeah because we need…

Hill: I think.

Chris: to be able to see that.

To many voices speaking here to pin point what’s said

Hill: I was at the training course on Tuesday and I was told that what are we now Wednesday.

Toni: We’re at Thursday

Hill: Yeah it’s Thursday’s now and I was told it was cancelled.

Barry: Yeah you what.

Hill: I thought you cancelled it?

Toni: No.

Chris: I think your could informed Suresh to meet them to go ahead Suresh says can you confirm that the CCTV is gone and he said well I can’t confirm that and he says well there’s no use having a meeting without the CCTV being there, there’s a misunderstanding

Hill: Yeah I think actually, well we’ve got CCTV it’s been done.. So, but you know that aside. we didn’t know we’d were gonna find.

Gina: Ambrose.

Chris: If it is Ambrose, we still want a meeting with us to see CCTV

Toni: We trust you, on Monday.

Hill: Look Ruth upsetting…. I know you’ve got that….. Trust, I assure you I’ve been doing this along time okay and I’ve worked on murder investigation for a long long time okay, I’m telling you now that I will give you the time that you want okay, there maybe times where you might ring me and you can’t get through to me, there’s always going to be them occasions because you know.

Toni: Of course I’ll expect that.

Hill: it will never be deliberate, but I’m telling you now I will give you the time okay? and I’ll be open and honest with you. I’ve got nothing to hide from you whatsoever, nothing alright, I can look you in the eye and tell you that okay and I will give you the time, but it’s not the right time for you to look at it now.

Chris:  Okay so?

Hill: If you say Stuart I want to look at it I will sit here with you now, we’re get the computer we’re go back and we’re do it, it’s entirely up to you, but you don’t do you?

Toni: No.

Gina: No.

Chris: No.

Hill: But its done for you, so I think where we are now, let’s take it step by step.

Toni: Find out if this is Ambrose 100%?

Hill: Then we know where we are don’t we?

Toni: Yeah.

Hill: We know where we are and we go from there.

Toni: Okay.

Gina:  What, because you know ******* has been ringing, ******* has been ringing, you know, what do we tell them that it’s 90% him?

Chris: Well?

Hill: You know I would say.

Toni: We can’t say anything until tomorrow?

Hill: All I would say is what I believe okay, the description of clothing matches what we believe Ambrose to be wearing, or wearing at the time of his disappearance.

Gina: 24th January?

Hill: On the 24th of January on the Friday to the Saturday morning.

Barry: The Dadyals CCTV in my opinion that’s the exact same clothing.

Hill: You can not identify that body that we found and your never gonna be able to identify that body visual.

Toni: So we’re never know whether it is Ambrose?

Hill: Yeah you will do there may be z mark on that body as you’ve just described.

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On the 25th April Ruth, friends and family members went down to where the body was found and took their own photographs.  The photographs taken are below…

 

 

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As with everything we state on this blog, all the statements can be backed up with further evidence in the way of emails, audio or visual recordings. In most cases this involves a combination of the aforementioned.

This is the transcript which was taken from the recording at the morgue. The people involved in this conversation are DSI Stewart Hill, Barry McCarthy, Ruth aka Toni, Chris and Alexandria aka Gina…Transcript starts at 1 hours and 13 minutes …

 
Chris: Here we go…
Hill: Ruth, Alex?
Toni: Hello.
Hill: Okay? We are just going to bring you through now okay. 
Chris: Thank you very much.
Hill: Do you want to come through this way please? 
Chris: (inaudible)
Hill: Do you’s want to take a seat?
Toni: What here?
Hill: Yes, wherever you feel comfortable yourself. Okay, erm, sorry for the delay to begin with, but as you can understand I’ve been quite busy today.  So when I took the call from Suresh my officers arranged to come down here straight down okay. Erm it’s your legal entitlement as I said to Suresh to view the body okay, That’s okay Chris, it’s either before the post mortem or after the post mortem, It’s your decision okay. I will say too you okay, I will be open and candid with you okay, I would advise against it at this stage! Okay, but it is your right, it is your right and I respect that.
Toni: Why? What would be different at any other stage?
Hill: Because, what will? What will happen is they will prepare, the body that we have they will prepare that body for the post mortem. The body is not prepared. The body has literally been lifted from a river, and it’s been in a river for a significant amount of time. There’s a significant amount of debris, decomposition as well, that it’s obviously that would take place as a result of a body been in a river for a certain amount of time. The body has literally been lifted, it’s been wrapped and it’s brought to the mortuary, and that is the condition the body is in! And I can tell you now, I can tell you now because I haven’t seen the body, literally I’ve seen photographs of the crime scene you will not be able to make identification, a visual identification. Clothing, there is still clothing on the body, but nothing has been removed from the body, the body has not been touched at all and that would not happen until tomorrow. So that is when obviously the process of the post mortem starts, so I’ve got to tell you that Alex, I’ve got to tell you that Ruth okay. Because it would be remiss of me if I didn’t, so, but it’s your decision and that’s why I am here. I’m sure that we’ve got a member of staff here now to be able to facilitate it for you but, but I warn you now that there hasn’t been any cleansing of the body at all okay which would be the case if it was after the post mortem
Toni: We were just told that you’ve had it since the 19th , you’ve had Ambrose.
Gina: Yes that’s what we just been told.
Chris: Yesterday.
Hill: Who told you that?
Toni: Somebody’s just informed ******** who was in, who was court.

Hill: Who’s *******?
Toni: ******** in *******.
Hill: No no no.
Toni: He’s just called me, he just called me.
Gina: He heard it from police officers on Tuesday.
Hill: No, No the first, the first call that I made was to you Alex so that’s, that’s the first port of call.
Gina: Okay.
Hill: Then obviously I rang you back an hour later.
Gina: Yes.
Hill: You told me to speak to Suresh. Other members of the family okay, were not contacted okay, until after I had spoken to you.
Toni: ***** was contacted the night before.
Gina: What about *****?
Hill: After.
Chris: No yesterday.
Hill: No after l …
Toni: They just told us it was the day before.
Hill: No after, after because I specifically, because you gave instructions didn’t you? Yeah?
Toni: Yeah.
Hill: We followed those instructions, nobody was contacted until after we had spoken to you, okay?
Chris: (inaudible)
Chris: Did you go yourself?
Hill: No no I dispatch the police from my office.
Chris: Right.
Hill: After I’d spoken to you. Because that was, that was the agreement and I wanted to make sure that you were the first person, first people that were told.
Gina: So why did ***** get to see the photographs before Ruth?
Hill: No ones seen the photographs.
Male: no ones seen photographs.
Gina: but she told us she has.
Toni: No she said the clothes were described to her.
Hill: The clothes (inaudible) he’s wearing clothes, we haven’t touched the body, that will happen tomorrow.
Toni: Was he wearing a jacket?
Hill: Erm he’s not wearing a jacket is he?
Barry: Yes he is.
Barry: The same that’s in the CCTV at Dadyals.
Gina: The River Island jacket?
Toni: So he’s got the clothes, the River Island jacket on?
Barry: No, no the jacket, the coat that is on the Dadyals CCTV that is what the body is wrapped in.
Toni: So he’s got the jacket on then?
Barry: The jacket, the one he was wearing in Dadyals yes.
Toni: So he’s got it on?
Barry: The jeans and the trainers.
Gina: Okay.
Hill: What you’ve got to appreciate, what you’ve got to appreciate the clothing has been in water, dirty stagnant water for a long period of time okay. So we are not really going to know for sure exactly what it is until. There are certain elements of clothing that are distinctive, that have kept their identity. For instance, the trainers okay, they are very distinctive, the belt is very distinctive but the I’m sorry having to describe this to you but it’s very difficult to describe unless you’ve actually.
Chris: Well was he wearing his watch was his watch on?
Barry: You cant tell.
Hill: You cant tell, you can’t tell. So its, so its, I’ve got to go outside in a minute to speak to a couple of people outside okay, so have a discussion amongst yourself. You can or you don’t have to it’s up to you but I would advise you Ruth no, but I understand what your needs are as well so it’s a matter for yourself. So if I can leave you for a couple of minutes just to make, have that discussion is that okay Alex?
Gina: Yes.
Hill: Yeah I’ll go outside, I’ll come back if you say yes we wanna do it we will do it it will only take 5 minutes just to prepare. Obviously we’ve got to remove the body, get it in a position where it can be viewed, if not we can come back again tomorrow after the post mortem where the body will be in a better condition because it would have been cleaned so it’s a complete.
Chris: Will you be able to see the whole body then? After the post mortem, without the clothes?
Hill: There is, there is not a whole body, so it, it’s difficult to describe. I haven’t seen the body itself but the bodies been in water for 3, well for some time. 
Chris: You’re going to do, going to DNA, not DNA your going to do…
Toni: Fingerprints?
Chris: Fingerprint test aren’t you?
Gina: That’s what the coroners told us. 
Toni: Becky said.
Gina: They’ve told us that your going to identify him by fingerprints and we don’t understand that because if he that badly decomposed.
Hill: With all due respect, with all due respect to Becky okay. Becky isn’t an investigator okay, she’s a corners’ officer and she hasn’t seen.
Toni: Yeah she said that.
Hill: I’m telling you now there will be no fingerprints.
Toni: But you haven’t seen him either.
Hill: I’ve seen…
Toni: No you haven’t seen Ambrose’s body.
Hill: Ambrose’s?
Toni: Body.
Hill: No. I’ve seen photographs. I’ve seen crime scene photographs, I’ve seen. The fact that I’ve seen, but I haven’t actually seen the body in person but I’ll tell you now the identification is more than likely to come from DNA. So DNA will have to be extracted tomorrow. The DNA will have to be then compared to the DNA that we have got and that takes 48 hours.
Chris: So then, what day is it tomorrow? So will we know Saturday then?
Gina: No Monday, Monday
Hill: It will be confirmed on Sunday, It may well be, it may well be. It may well be that when they remove the clothing, okay which is going to be difficult within its self. There may be a mark on the body that may be visible for instance, a tattoo?
Toni: The leg.
Hill: Or a leg that we might be able to you know so we are almost 100% sure now that this is Ambrose but it might not be the case I don’t know. 
Chris: Because he…
Hill: The body is covered in debris.
Chris: The autopsy that your going to be doing is that going to include all like if he been hit and things like that, is I going to be a full?
Hill: There’s 2 types we do. We do what we call a standard post mortem ok which is where there are no other surrounding circumstances but we give rise to any foul play or any third party involvement. Where we are unsure whether there’s been any third party involvement or foul play we have a special post mortem. We have a specially qualified pathologist. That is why we haven’t been able to get it done straight away. OK. He will come here. Will it be done here?
Barry: Yes.
Hill: Yes it will be done here and that special post mortem is a thorough post mortem, where you know they will seek to identify the cause of death er and …
Toni: If he’s body is so decomposed can they do that?
Hill: They can, they can …
Toni: So can they tell me if he’s drowned or not?
Hill: They can, they can in certain circumstances, Now i’m not a pathologist but in my 21 years I’ve been to a few post mortems and I know within a certain degree what they can do and what they cant do. So in certain circumstances they can and sometimes they can’t but it really depends. I don’t know how long that particular body has been in the river, I don’t know how long its been er, the type of river whether the waters moving or its stagnant obviously does play its part in it as well. There are certain factors that have got to be taken into consideration, you know. If there’s obvious signs of third party involvement i.e foul play i.e. there’s a, a …
Toni: Injury
Hill: Yeah, there is …
Chris: Crushed skull or
Hill: Fractured skull or there’s broken bones they will be able to identify that so then we know that there’s other issues that we need to investigate. But sometimes because of the length of time its been, its taken, obviously for the body to be found, that they may inhibit certain lines of enquiry that the pathologist may follow but I think that’s something that, this is ifs or buts we don’t know yet because we have to wait for the pathologist to start and have a look at what he or she has got, well it’s a he in this case tomorrow okay?
Chris: What Chapman?
Hill: No it was Chapman
Toni: Chapman or, its Ian somebody?
Hill: No no its Paul, it was Chapman but that was today but he has got others and It was going to take to long and would have gone into the evening and it just would not have been appropriate for that. So we’ve got another one, he’s going to do it.
Toni: so there’s only about 5 of them in this country?
Hill: I’m not sure how many there is, I think there is about 14 but not really that many of them.
Gina: So the reason Chapman didn’t do it is because he couldn’t do it today?
Barry: Because he had others to do.
Toni: Yeah and we.
Gina: So it’s actually getting done tomorrow, so why couldn’t Chapman still do it then?
Hill: Well because there’s, he’s obviously, I don’t know what whether its, whether its, he’s day in court or not, I don’t know, but we’ve got a pathologist. He couldn’t do it today, but he was the pathologist on call today, couldn’t do it today because he had others but we’ve got one tomorrow and its been booked in at 12 o’ clock. 
Chris: How long does it normally take?
Hill: Quite a long time, a number of hours.
Chris: So there should be a good view tomorrow of what were looking at, late afternoon?
Hill: Yeah. Early evening. Yeah, yeah but you’ll be contacted. You will be contacted as soon as we.
Toni: So obviously I don’t want to see him if its all debris goes without saying I want to see him cleaned up. I can’t; I won’t have that out my head.
Chris: That’s the thing.
Hill: And that’s the thing, that’s the concern, that is the concern because you know.
Toni: If it’s going to improve me looking at him then I’ll wait until he’s cleaned up.
Gina: It’s worth the 24 hours wait to be honest.
Toni: Yeah.
Gina: Can we just look at the clothes just by the photos?
Toni: He hasn’t got them.
Gina: We are, because we were supposed to look at them tonight.
Toni: Are we still having a meeting tonight?
Hill: Well that’s up to you.
Chris: Yeah yeah the clothes the clothes and all that.
Barry: No no no I suggest not to look at the photos because it’s exactly the same. The photos  will be the same as looking at the body, just it’s the same coming out of the river.
Toni: Okay.
Hill: So, It’s the body is face down.
Toni: Have you seen them?
Barry: Pardon?
Toni: Have you seen them?
Barry: Yes.
Hill: The bodies face down, okay we can’t move the body, we can’t move the body okay, so if you was to view the body tonight it will be face down, face down. We can’t move the body. Mikes not in the position to be able do that tonight, it will take a specialist to be able to do that. So.
Gina: It’s better to clean him do you know what I mean?
Toni: I’m sorry we’ve dragged you out.
Hill: That’s alright, not a problem.
Chris: See the thing is if we could have had someone come around and explain everything exactly to come around, the same as you are rather than over the phone because, you don’t get a lot over the phone you know?
Hill: Yep, yep.
Chris: Where as if you came around and explained it could have probably saved a bit of a journey.
Hill: Yesterday I made myself available to come around, I would have come around this morning but what obviously happened this morning, the reason I didn’t I do it this morning is because I was under the impression the PM was going to be this afternoon. So we’ve got to do certain things in place to facilitate the post mortem but I didn’t find out until this afternoon that it was, its not going to be, cant fit it in its going to be tomorrow. So effectively we’ve done what we need to do and we are now free now because we expected to be working now so, you know. We can, if you want to meet earlier at Sureshs’. I’ve spoken to him today he said we can do that.
Toni: Okay.
Gina: Well hold on, how do I put it, we’ve just been advised the photos are not being any good, is there any point doing that meeting? 
Toni: Because that’s what its about.
Gina: Its about the photos and that isn’t it?
Toni: And if you’re saying it’s like looking at the body now then.
Hill: Is there anyway, any photographs that we can show?
Toni: Edible, not edible, not eaten.
Barry: There’s one photo of the trainers.
Toni: And I can see and.
Hill: That you can see.
Toni: Nah, but I wouldn’t be able to recognise the trainers.
Gina: They could be anyone’s couldn’t they?
Toni: Yeah, yeah.
Barry: Yeah I just think its just not, I don’t think it’s appropriate to show those photos at this stage.
Hill: You see visually, visually you will not be able to identify that body, you will not be able to. 
Toni: Okay.
Chris: So he was face down in the river? When they found him?
Hill: When they found him? When they found him yes.
Chris: So you just picked it up (inaudible) So he’s how he was basically.
Hill: Yes.

Barry: So everything that’s around the body is also taken out of the water as well, so all debris and twigs.
Toni: How far was it?
Gina: How far was it from the helicopter search and fingertip search and POLSA search and all that? How far was because the helicopters were out within 40 minutes of that car accident?
Hill: Yeah, yeah.
Gina: They would have, sorry this is our view. They would have found him if he was at that river you would have found him. Number 2 the fact that, you know he did have a jacket on. We knew that wasn’t his jacket.
Hill: I think if we can answer if I showed you the map, you would see and you would probably draw your own conclusions as to potentially why, if it is him why he is where he was found.
Gina: Well I’m not being horrible the only reason the focus was on that river was because of Darrens’ jacket. 
Hill: Exactly.
Gina: The fact is as you told us at the last weeks meeting that jacket was put in the back of that boot by Darren. Now everyone’s trying to make us believe that Ambrose left his phone in the car but went to the trouble to go to the back of that car, got his jacket out, after a crash we are talking, get out open that boot take his jacket out, close the boot, run down an alley, drop a jacket he didn’t even need, sorry we’re not buying it
Hill: Yeah, yeah.
Toni: And then be so happy at Dadyals.
Gina: We’ve seen it.
Toni: How can he be all that happy after all them fights?
Gina: On Monday at the meeting you said at five to three Inspector Wise upped that to a medium Yep? 
Hill: Yep.
Gina: But you didn’t receive the call until 15.48 from Alpesh stating he found the jacket so how is that possible?
Hill: Yeah, yeah.
Toni: There’s a lot that don’t make sense.
Hill: I hear what your saying but when, when we show you the map, when we show you the map of where the jacket was found okay. 
Gina: But why (inaudible) why the jacket?
Hill: You know the river, you know the river that we looked at that we looked at, remember when we went down there we looked at the river.
Chris: Yeah by the bypass.
Hill: It wasn’t that river.
Chris: Your on about the one near the canal then you’ve got the river afterwards. Your on about the river afterwards?
Toni: Yes the one I was worried about.
Chris: If you walk along the edge of the canal you’ve got the river one side and the canal the other side?
Hill: Is that right.
Barry: Its actually Pymmes Brook and then the next one is the River Lea and then River Lea navigation, that’s what is says on the map its River Lea Navigation that the body was found in.
Hill: Its gone further from where that jacket was and that further across.
Toni: That’s the one I said.
Barry: Every third stretch of water.
Hill: And the route of that river.
Toni: Expands and opens.
Toni: That’s what I was worried about.
Hill: It doesn’t meet the one where the jacket was, until a hell of a long way down so it’s a completely separate.
Chris: We always thought the jacket was planted anyway.
Hill: Yeah.
Chris: When we got there er the jacket was…
Toni: Was dry.
Chris: Apparently it had supposedly been there 3 days it was bone dry it had been frosty all night the jacket had been bone dry…
Toni: Its pouring, it’s horrible.
Chris: There was no slug trails which we’d expect being raining 3 days.
Hill: Here’s a possible explanation here as to where he is now okay but lets wait and see what happens at the post mortem we haven’t got all information and this is, to us, for us this is the most important part for us because this gives us the indication of whether there was any over foul play, yeah.
Stewart Hill takes a phone-call.
Toni: He looks a bit like Bruce Forsythe from the side don’t he?
Barry: (inaudible)
Gina: Nah he’s not that bad.
Chris: When the accident was reported we insisted that they searched the River Lea and they turned around and said…
Toni: Wouldn’t have gone that far.
Chris: Nah he wouldn’t have, something like he wouldn’t have gone that far and we can’t do it unless we got more…
Toni: More evidence…
Chris: Evidence to prove he’s gone that far.
Barry: They go on certain pointers see because they would say well if, how far do you expect us, that’s what the search team would say.
Chris: The thing is you got to think when you say you’ve got a car, even if it was Ambrose’ car I don’t believe that was Ambrose in that car.
Hill: Yeah.
Chris: But even if it was Ambrose in that car you’ve then got to think well then okay add that to the(inaudible) drunk or whatever How far can he get in two hours and then you do your search for that you don’t like just around the car which is what they’ve done. Three days the only search party was from family.
Hill: Obviously we can go through that with you I mean its not its detailed searching so you know, what they’ve got to do, what they do search they’ve got to search properly so they cant search something with the chances of them missing something. See if they miss something it just don’t move forward and then, subsequently if something turns out they know that it’s been a faulty investigation because they should have found something. I mean there’s been examples of that there has been examples of it so it isn’t within the search parameters And we went back down there to discuss it but that’s something that we can go through with you and id like to go through that with you with Maps because you know.
Chris: For me if they turn around and say they have a helicopter out within 2 hours after that car was reported missing, reported crashed er I think …
Toni: You would have found him.
Chris: I thought it was 2 hours?
Hill: I think it was 20 minutes.
Toni: An hour yeah 20 minutes.
Gina: The helicopter was up by 3.40 and that’s within half an hour.
Hill: And we’ve had a discussion about it, I’m not going to commit myself to anything because I don’t know what’s going to come out of this okay. But the fact that that helicopter was up early okay, search lights, noise, he would have known.
Toni: Body heat as well.
Hill: He would know, before that, before that Ruth. You can hear the bloody thing especially at night time so and if you’ve just crashed a car okay, you’ve had a drink or whatever you’ve abandoned that car and you hear the police helicopter go up and you see the spot light going down you know the chances are he’s…
Toni: Going to hide.
Hill: He’s not going to sit there is he and wait to be found is he? Let’s just wait and see.
Chris: Okay then so that’s 20 minutes.
Hill: Its less than that Chris, I haven’t got the, I think they was up in 15 minutes I think, something like that. 
Gina: When we checked, it was up there at 3.40.
Hill: I think they were already up and I think they’ve just come over. It was a, it was a , it was a good response and it was a quick response than we would normally expect actually so they were probably already up dealing with something else so er lets see what comes out from the the the…
Chris: Post mortem.
Hill: Yeah the PM er then we can go from there look I’m going to, I’m going to speak to a couple of people outside that are waiting and er I’ve got some police officers here because I didn’t want you just turning up and waiting outside and nobody being here. I’m just going to speak with them. Make your decision.
Toni: Er I think we’ve made it, I think we’ve made it.
Chris: You might see Clare outside shes with the, she’s independent from the BBC but they are doing a program in September er for er this sort of thing. So this isn’t something you think about immediately, this is something that.
Hill: I hope Surseh has provided you this information because I’ve spoken to Suresh and I’ve told him that you know, you’re not going to be able to identify him, you’re not going to be able to identify him, you’re not that is that is, you’re not going to be able to do that because of the condition of the body you know and …
Chris: He did but he turned around and said we’d advise you not to but…
Hill: It’s your legal right, it’s your legal right and we can’t take that away from you but I, as a police officer, you know am just advising you, not even as police officer but somebody that’s seen that body, I’m advising you no. If you can, wait until tomorrow. That would be the best time for you
Toni: Yeah
Barry: Yes most defiantly
Hill: At least, at least the body as it is will be cleaned it is you know.
Chris: Well can you suggest for tomorrow yeah if you got, find that there’s markings there, tattoos on the body or on the knee, a scar is it on the knee?
Toni: On his right knee where he had a operation. It goes from here to here.
Chris: That’s why he’s got.
Toni: That’s why he’s got that limp, one of his legs was in traction for three months, no from here to here from his knee bone to connect because his knee disconnected from his…
Chris: And his got tattoos…
Toni: And he was on a traction for three months…
Chris: A body on his arm…
Toni: And it’s a very very thick thick scar.
Gina: Even if they can’t see physically they will be able to with bones.
Toni: He was on a traction for three months.
Barry: What was injured was it cartridge or was it…
Toni: Erm the knee came away, literally the year the ambulances were on strike.
Barry: How old was he when he had that?
Toni: What the year the ambulances were on strike? Boxing Day.
Barry: It would be (inaudible).
Toni: 15 years.
Chris: Cover the rest of the body and just leave that identifiable so Ruth could identify it through that way? Then she doesn’t have to see anything else.
Hill: Yeah.
Chris: Do you understand what I mean? If it’s going to be that bad.
Hill: Yeah, it is and we will do what we can, erm Barry will clean it and Barry will obviously speak to the pathologist and the technician that we’ve here to ensure got to make sure you know. What can be viewed.
Barry: Did he have tattoos on his legs?
Toni: No because he had one massive tattoo on his sorry …
Toni: On his right side just done of a woman, of a Mexican type woman.
Barry: Quite a large one?
Toni: Yeah took up all up this side. His got loads, his got one on his neck but its not Legend he covered up the word Legend with a rose but it looks like a load of ink has been slapped on his neck.
Barry: So a Mexican lady on the right side.
Toni: Yeah.
Barry: Of the torso.
Toni: Yeah, all the way down, covers the whole side.
Stewart Hill takes a phone call …
Barry: Any other sort of larger ones?
Toni: No that’s Jonathon, that’s Jonathon.
Barry: (inaudible).
Toni: Yeah his got something on his back, his arm was covered.
Barry: (inaudible)
Toni: Yeah his arm was covered.
Barry: So any other sort of operation that he’s had?
Toni: Nah only that knee one.
Barry: So the knee operations?
Toni: Yeah he was in traction for three months in hospital and his leg is slightly shorter, maybe an inch shorter.
Barry: Right okay, what about any gold teeth?
Toni: No.
Barry: That’s fine.
Hill: What was the watch? What was the watch he had on?t
Toni: It was the 25th November.
Barry: Do you know which wrist he wore the watch on?
Toni: His left.
Hill: What was it a leather strap watch or…
Toni: No gold.
Gina: Gold it was all gold. Gold face with a gold strap?
Chris: And I think it was like a pink.
Toni: Yeah sort of rose colour, rose colour.
Hill: What was the make of it do you know?
Toni: 25th anniversary it was called.
Gina: Anniversary Royal Oak or something like that.
Hill: That might still be on.
Barry: Well er yeah.
Hill: If its metal strap and that.
Barry: Er yeah.
Gina: And we also know that he had £400 pound on him, so hopefully that will…
Toni: Yeah in his pocket.
Barry: Obviously we’ve not checked the pockets or anything.
Gina: Okay.
Hill: So that’s all done here we don’t. The body gets lifted straight from the water and then we have to take it as it comes (inaudible) erm the body was found just by a worker walking along checking the river at about twenty to three.
Toni: Twenty to three in the morning.
Hill: No it was environmental agency staff checking the water.
Barry: Its not an area where people walk.
Gina: It was a chance.
Hill: There’s photographs of the body in the water you know, I probably wouldn’t have picked it up. Amongst the surface debris in the water.
Toni: Which I thought would have happened further up.
Hill: well when you look at it you’ll think well I cant see how he fell but he did. Unfortunately erm but obviously it took some time to get the body out of the water, because it was in water it takes you know it takes time to remove the body from the position it has been in for some time.
Toni: But we don’t know for sure how long until tomorrow.
Hill: But they’ll put you, know we don’t know how long. I mean they might be able to give an estimate but its, I think it will be pretty difficult. It will be difficult to be precise on that sort of thing.
Gina: Yes.
Chris: So he was probably half in and half out of the water
Hill: Fully in the water but the back, the bum was just above the …
Barry: All that was visible was the back.
Hill: Fully in the water but the back , the bum…

Gina: Half in half out?

Hill: Was sort of above was the vessel was so that’s.

Hill: All: that is visible is the back and from the bum the area.

Gina: So yeah that’s what we meant.

Hill: That that’s all.

Hill: Yeah so so not half from there and half its.

Gina: That’s what we thought.. Yeah.

Hill: But that could change depending on the tide of the water and everything so it’s… You know.

Chris: Alright, in your experience.

Toni: It’s him.

Chris: You’ve obviously seen seen a body in the morgue… Does it look like it’s been in there for three months.

Toni: Oh I no.

Hill: It looks like it’s been in there for a long time.

Chris: Oh.

Hill: There’s a lot of.

Chris: You don’t think he could of been somewhere else and then dumped there later.

Hill: Well will.

Chris: You’ll find that out.

Hill: Yeah, yeah, there’s one question I will be asking the pathologist is, is now can we tell whether that body is drowned.

Chris: Yeah.

Hill: Or if that body was dead before it went in there.

Gina: Yeah.
Hill: And under certain circumstances they can ah but because of the length of time that body may be in there that be compromised so it’s will have to wait and see will have to wait and see but that be one of the questions we’re ask.
Chris: One of the saving graces is probably was cos he was cold if he was only wearing a t-shirt or something it might not of been.

Hill : Yeah…….. Alright then.

Toni: So will hear from you for tomorrow.

Hill: Yep your hear from Barry tomorrow ah.

Barry: What about tomorrow?

Toni: My number.

Hill: You want us to go for Suresh or do you want us to.

Toni: Direct, I’ve already told that Becky as well direct to me.

Hill: Okay.

Toni: Please.

Hill: What stage is that then Ruth.

Toni: All stages now.

Hill: Okay, alright.. So so what’s the likely hood contact tomorrow then Barry will be.

Toni: Will confirm that if he’s still having a meeting tonight… I’ll confirm that with Suresh.

Gina: Well we don’t need the meeting tonight do we?

Toni: Nah we don’t need it..

Gina: Well.

Toni: No we don’t.

Gina: We don’t need it.

Toni: No we don’t need tonight then.

Gina: Because it was really around photos and…

Hill: Yeah.

Gina: What we discussed here really isn’t it.

Hill: Yeah that’s.

Gina: Yeah, so.

Toni: So leave tonight then.

Gina: What’s the point of having it really cos we’re gonna go through that tomorrow may as well just…

Toni: Yeah leave it.

Gina: leave it now and deal with that.

Toni: Take it from tomorrow.

Gina: That’s what will do.

Hill: So should I take a number.

Toni: Says number.

Chris: Do you want the house number just in case you can’t get anything?

Toni; Yeah.

Chris: And the house number will be – says number.

Hill: Now tomorrow okay

Barry: I think: should I put a call into you just before we start.

Toni: No when we can come and view.

Hill: Right what I’ve got is an estimated time… I’ll let you know.

Chris: Yeah.

Toni: Yeah please.

Chris: Than you can turn…

Everyone speaks at the same here is hard to pin point what is said

Toni: Oh yeah.

Gina: We can’t, we won’t be able do get down here till about two anyway.

Barry: No it won’t be.

Gina: Ah okay.

Hill : If we’re gonna be realistic about this ok tomorrow is going to be obviously a full day for everybody it’s gonna be an emotional day for yourself ah…. Barry has things to due obviously during the course of the postmortem and I’ve got other officers here that that obviously they have roles they got to perform during the postmortem…. Your then do the viewing after the postmortem ok… Barry will be on hand I’m not gonna be here tomorrow evening but I’m back on Monday alright now the DNA will be taken – if they can get DNA which ah you know ah… I’ve seen DNA retracted from bodies that have been dead along time a lot longer then then.

Toni: They do it with dinosaurs.

Hill: In certain circumstances….. Without speaking to the pathologist… I’m trusting the lads gonna be the work going forward… So that will be taken for examination and comparison with the DNA that we’ve got, so we’re looking for potential Sunday.. Sunday for the identification to be confirmed okay so you will get ah your either get a phone call confirming it or you get a call saying we’re still waiting for it, it was due but we’re still waiting for it to be done cos it goes off to an laboratory in Birmingham it’s not a police laboratory it’s an independent laboratory that does it that is contacted by the police okay so we’re really, ah, ah, they give it to, but their telling us 48 hours so once that’s done you will be informed ah and, then I think potentially I think the best time for us to meet will probably be Monday ah and I’ll speak to Suresh about it maybe that’s something we can probably arrange or get something in place so then we’ve all made an assessment of what we’ve got, what the situation is and then we can come together and we can go go from there is that okay Ruth?

Toni: Yeah that’s fine.

Hill: Otherwise what happens, as I’ve been in this situation before, you know everyone is going to emotional charged, your going to have 100 and one things your want to ask, your forget that cause your emotionally charged and it’s not productive at all.

Gina: Yep.

Hill: Let’s deal with things

Toni: It’s the best that.

Gina: For everybody.

Chris: I don’t know it (inaudible).

Hill: Is that alright.

Toni: Yeah.

Hill: Yeah.

Toni: Okay.

Chris: Hopefully tomorrow you might get an identification without doing the DNA.

Gina: No your still have to do that anyway won’t you.

Barry: Yeah.

Toni: Well.

Gina: Legally to make sure.

Hill: Nah sometimes you can do it but i not relying on that at all.

Chris:  Yeah yeah.

Hill: So I’m not relaying on that at all, but you know we don’t know, we don’t know, there might be something in his pocket with his name on it, I don’t know.

Gina: Yeah.

Hill: Because when we had a look.

Barry: What hospital did he have the operation at?

Toni: Guys hospital.

Barry: About fifteen years ago?

Toni: Yeah roughly.

Chris: Did he have any Metal put in his knee or anything?

Toni: No not… Yeah I think it was on a traction and it had to be pulled you know stretched.

Barry: What these operations.

Toni: Yeah and he was on traction for three months it wasn’t a little thing.

Gina: yeah.

Barry: So that should be something should be able to determine the.

Toni: Oh God defiantly.

Hill: Have we got disclosure as a verbal agreement at all?

Barry: No I don’t think so.

Hill: I’ll have to speak to Sharon about that did you sign anything Ruth?

Toni: Nothing at all

Hill: Okay, we might not need it but if we do apologise for, make a note if there is and then we get the records he’s medical records and do a comparison…

Toni: Yeah.

Hill: That is one way……. That’ll probably be quicker anyway, but it’s you know will have to wait and see as we go forward, but personally I think you’ve made the right decision.

Toni: Okay.

Hill: You made the right decision… So Erm and hopefully tomorrow your a lot clearer is to… Yeah okay so is there anything else you wanna ask me now I know without the meeting tonight but is there anything you want to ask me?

Toni: Do you think it’s him?

Hill: Do I think it’s him? I, on the clothing, on clothing, from what I’ve seen on the CCTV. erm and the thing that’s been described to him and the clothing he’s said to be wearing. Erm based upon probably his trainers which are very distinctive, I’m surprised he still go his trainers on to be fair, the, the, you know as I’ve describe it, as almost certainly, almost certainly however…

Gina: Yeah?

Hill: I’m sure there just not one pair of trainers made.

Chris: We still need to have a meeting because we would still like to see the CCTV you can see it.

Barry: Yeah that’s all ready.

Hill: We had all that we had all that for you, was we meant to meeting today.

Toni: But it was Suresh, for some reason he cancelled it because he said he tried to get hold of you and you were on two days training.. You were on training.

Gina: You won’t return his calls.

Hill: I was training I was training but we still pencilled in for the meeting but the trading was two days ago so.

Barry: The CCTV we can watch on the DVD player right that first quicker.

Gina: That’s what I said to you.

Chris: Yeah because we need…

Hill: I think.

Chris: to be able to see that.

To many voices speaking here to pin point what’s said

Hill: I was at the training course on Tuesday and I was told that what are we now Wednesday.

Toni: We’re at Thursday

Hill: Yeah it’s Thursday’s now and I was told it was cancelled.

Barry: Yeah you what.

Hill: I thought you cancelled it?

Toni: No.

Chris: I think your could informed Suresh to meet them to go ahead Suresh says can you confirm that the CCTV is gone and he said well I can’t confirm that and he says well there’s no use having a meeting without the CCTV being there, there’s a misunderstanding

Hill: Yeah I think actually, well we’ve got CCTV it’s been done.. So, but you know that aside. we didn’t know we’d were gonna find.

Gina: Ambrose.

Chris: If it is Ambrose, we still want a meeting with us to see CCTV

Toni: We trust you, on Monday.

Hill: Look Ruth upsetting…. I know you’ve got that….. Trust, I assure you I’ve been doing this along time okay and I’ve worked on murder investigation for a long long time okay, I’m telling you now that I will give you the time that you want okay, there maybe times where you might ring me and you can’t get through to me, there’s always going to be them occasions because you know.

Toni: Of course I’ll expect that.

Hill: it will never be deliberate, but I’m telling you now I will give you the time okay? and I’ll be open and honest with you. I’ve got nothing to hide from you whatsoever, nothing alright, I can look you in the eye and tell you that okay and I will give you the time, but it’s not the right time for you to look at it now.

Chris:  Okay so?

Hill: If you say Stuart I want to look at it I will sit here with you now, we’re get the computer we’re go back and we’re do it, it’s entirely up to you, but you don’t do you?

Toni: No.

Gina: No.

Chris: No.

Hill: But its done for you, so I think where we are now, let’s take it step by step.

Toni: Find out if this is Ambrose 100%?

Hill: Then we know where we are don’t we?

Toni: Yeah.

Hill: We know where we are and we go from there.

Toni: Okay.

Gina:  What, because you know ******* has been ringing, ******* has been ringing, you know, what do we tell them that it’s 90% him?

Chris: Well?

Hill: You know I would say.

Toni: We can’t say anything until tomorrow?

Hill: All I would say is what I believe okay, the description of clothing matches what we believe Ambrose to be wearing, or wearing at the time of his disappearance.

Gina: 24th January?

Hill: On the 24th of January on the Friday to the Saturday morning.

Barry: The Dadyals CCTV in my opinion that’s the exact same clothing.

Hill: You can not identify that body that we found and your never gonna be able to identify that body visual.

Toni: So we’re never know whether it is Ambrose?

Hill: Yeah you will do there may be z mark on that body as you’ve just described.

On the 25th April Ruth, friends and family members went down to where the body was found and took their own photographs.  The photographs taken are below…

As with everything we state on this blog, all the statements can be backed up with further evidence in the way of emails, audio or visual recordings. In most cases this involves a combination of the aforementioned.

 

These are the photographs that were presented as part of the evidence on behalf of the Metropolitan Police.

Once again the Metropolitan Police have chosen to produce dark photographs of items they don’t want shown fully …

The car accident. The photographs below were taken some 4 days after the accident.The area was not cordoned off and items such as the wheel, number plate and a large amount of debris was left at the scene for the local authority to collect and dispose off. However this did not happen and after 5 days the number plate and wheel disappeared…

Why do you suppose they took the crash scene photographs at night?

A. Could it be to disguise how unmarked the roads were i.e. no signs of a car with no front drivers side wheel travelling along the road?

 B. Or because there were no markings on the road, considering a damaged, drivers’ rear tyre, had been so damaged, that it caused the wheel to receive a big dent and, the tyre to become deflated?

C. Maybe it was because there were no marks left by the front passenger wheel, which  was so damaged, that it was supported by a jack when we went to see it in the Police pound at Perivale?

D. And last but not least, could it be because there were no signs of any brake fluid or other fluids which would usually leak from the car, after being damaged at the front in the way the BMW was damaged?

The 1st photograph below shows the entrance to the alleyway.  No 2 shows where TL exits the vehicle. The 3rd one shows the barrier that the BMW crashed into. The 4th photograph shows the view towards the river down the alleyway. The 5th one shows where the BMW came to a stop and the final one shows the bus stop on the north-bound carriageway, TL said he went to after getting out of the car. 

The 1st photograph below shows the entrance to the alleyway.  No 2 shows shows where TL exits the vehicle. The 3rd one shows the barrier that the BMW crashed into. The 4th photograph shows the view towards the river down the alleyway. The 5th one shows where the BMW came to a stop and the final one shows the bus stop on the north-bound carriageway, TL said he went to after getting out of the car.

Below is the alleyway, right next to where the BMW is said to have come to a stop. The photograph next s the bottom of the alleyway, which is near to where DFs jacket was found, in a field on the marshes…

Isn’t it amazing how the Metropolitan Police photograph areas they want to be seen and when they are trying hard to be believed…

The 1st photograph shows the north gate,which leads to the boating community. The 2nd shows the boating community and the 3rd one shows the view across the River Lee towards path. The 4th one shows the view south towards Stonebridge lock.  

 

The next 3 photographs are around the 24 hour convenience shop Dadyals which is situated on Bowes Road, Arnos Grove, where Ambrose and TL are captured on C.C.T.V. At the time this was captured, Ambrose is said to have already been in a number of fights, was blind drunk and high on cocaine.

Does that description look fit the smile and relaxed demeanour of Ambrose  in these photographs? Although Ambrose seems very happy and relaxed, TL does not… 

 

Photograph 1 shows where Ambrose’s body was discovered and the next two maps apparently pinpoint where certain things happend…

Again these maps pinpoint a number of locations where searches/incidences/actions are said to have occurred…