The Metropolitan Police’s star witness and only witness to the ‘crash’ TL.
Andrew Walker “Now you made a number of statements during the course of the police investigation”
TL “Yeah”.
Andrew Walker “I just want to let you know this. I am not interested in what you said in those statements, I’m interested in what you have to say today, about the events which unfolded on Friday 23rd January last year. Alight?”
TL gives his full name.
Andrew Walker “Now can you tell me what you recollect of the events, as they unfolded on the 23rd January last year.”
TL “From the start (inaudible).”
Andrew Walker “What I’m really interested in is the Fox public house. I’m interested in your reaction with Mr Ambrose Ball, who I believe you knew as Jay, is that right?”
TL “Yeah.”
Andrew Walker “Tell us about that, so on that day when was the first time you saw Mr Ball, or Jay?”
TL Er when I come out of the pub.”
Andrew Walker “So which pub was this?”
TL “The Fox. I come out and there was an argument happening. ”
Andrew Walker “So first of all we just need to understand a little bit more about the time. Have you any idea what sort of time this would have been. Was it early evening?”
TL“Quite late.”
Andrew Walker “Quite late evening.”
TL “About 10, 11.”
Andrew Walker “Did you speak to Jay, Mr Ball before the moment you are about to tell us about, when you came out of the pub at about 10 or 11 p.m?”
TL “Nah.”
Andrew Walker “You didn’t peak to him during the course of the evening?”
TL “Nah.”
Andrew Walker “Did you see him at all?”
TL “Nah.”
Andrew Walker “So tell us you came out of the pub, (inaudible), it was about 10 p.m., 11 p.m. What happened?”
TL “Er it looked like everyone was kicking off. One of my mates…”
Andrew Walker “When you say kicking off, what do you mean?”
TL “Just about everyone outside the pub was going mental.”
Andrew Walker “In what sense were they. Were they shouting at one another, fighting one another?”
TL “Yeah, they were hyper.”
Andrew Walker “How would you describe it?”
TL “Just hyper, like eveyone.”
Andrew Walker “So people were, people were shouting at one another were they?”
TL “Yeah.”
Andrew Walker “People were talking loudly?”
TL “There was a lot going on.”
Andrew Walker “So what happened then, what do you remember next?”
TL “Er my mate V was having like an argument with Jay. And er my friend D was getting in the middle of it. And I’m hearing like Jays name and I come over and V, and then that all got stopped.”
Andrew Walker “Yes. Then what?”
TL ” A couple of minutes after that, my mate V who was arguing with him got hit, Knocked out.
Andrew Walker “So a couple of minutes later someone got hit and knocked out?”
TL “Yeah.”
Andrew Walker “Who was that?”
TL “Er my mate V.”
Andrew Walker “And who was responsible for knocking out V or hitting him?”
TL “I don’t even know his name.”
Andrew Walker “You don’t know his name. Had you seen him before?”
TL “Yeah.”
Andrew Walker “So did you see how V came to be knocked out? Did you see the lead up to him being knocked out?”
TL “Yeah.
Andrew Walker “So did you see how he, how V came to be knocked out?”
TL “Er the altercation got calmed down and like everyone was going their own ways, and then er 2 lads just jumped out of nowhere and hit him in the face, and kicked him on the floor and ran off.”
Andrew Walker “Where was Jay when all this is happening?”
TL“Like my friend was on the left, he was on the right.”
Andrew Walker “But he wasn’t involved in the altercation with V, that resulted in him being knocked out?”
TL “No he didn’t touch him or anything. He didn’t tell the guys to hit him or anything.”
Andrew Walker “So after V was knocked out, what happened then?”
TL “Er, I’ve gone over to help him up. He’s got up and probably thought it was me that hit him and he took a swing at me. V’s gone over, er D’s gone over and grabbed him, said what you doing that’s T.And he’s got back to his senses. He went on his way.”
Andrew Walker “What happened then?
TL “Er me and D got into E car, a cousins friend, dropped us to Southgate.”
Andrew Walker “So you and D got into a car. Who’s car was it?”
TL “Er my friend E and his cousin, I don’t know his name.”
Andrew Walker “Do you know what type of car it was?”
TL “Not sure.”
Andrew Walker “Alright.”
TL “Right now I can’t remember right now.”
Andrew Walker “And where did you go in this car?”
TL “They dropped us of at Southgate station.”
Andrew Walker “Just to be clear Jay wasn’t in the car at this stage with you, was he?”
TL “Nah.”
Andrew Walker “Tell us what happened next. You were at Southgate station. What happens next?”
TL “Got out, er me and D standing there. I think Jay was just there already. And er we were talking and D said he was going to the toilet in the kebab shop. So while me and Jay was talking, D was taking a bit long. Er Jay was asking where I was from and that, and I said Tottenham. Asked where D was from I said Southgate, he said we may as well just leave him then innit and we went on our way.”
Andrew Walker “So you had a conversation with Jay. What was that conversation, sorry your voice trailed off.”
TL “We were just talking and then he asked me where I lived and I said Tottenham. He said I live there as well, do you want a lift back.”
Andrew Walker “So he asked if you wanted a lift back?”
TL “Yeah.”
Andrew Walker “And what happened then?”
TL “Er left D, got in the car and drove towards Tottenham but we dropped, stopped off at Arnos Grove.”
Andrew Walker “So you stopped off at Arnos Grove. So just at this point, who is in the car?”
TL “Just me and Jay.”
Andrew Walker “So were you in the passenger seat?”
TL “Yeah.”
Andrew Walker “Jay in the driving seat?”
TL “Yeah.”
Andrew Walker “Do you remember what type of car it was?”
TL “Er a BMW.”
Andrew Walker “Do you remember what colour it was?”
TL “Not right now, no.”
Andrew Walker “Alright. So you stopped off at Arnos Grove, why was that?”
TL “I just went to the shop.”
Andrew Walker “For, for, to buy what?”
TL ” (inaudible) to buy a drink.”
Andrew Walker “So when you get to Arnos Grove, who gets out of the car, do you stay in the car, do you get out of the car?”
TL “Er Jay got out of the car. I stayed in the car. And er he was chatting to 2 people in the car and, I’ve looked out of the car and recognised them. So I’ve got out of the car to talk to them”
Andrew Walker “So Jay got out of the car. Started talking to 2 people.”
TL “Yeah.”
Andrew Walker “And then you recognised them. Where did you, did you know their names?”
TL “Er I know one of them, Barry. I recognised Barry, I recognised the other guy, I don’t know his name.”
Andrew Walker “What was the conversation about?”
TL “Er I don’t even know just Jay and them 2 just talking.”
Andrew Walker “So what happened then?”
TL “Er got, went in the shop and brought, I brought a beer and I think Jay brought a beer and got back in the car and drove off.”
Andrew Walker ” What happened then?”
TL “Then we got in the car and drove off.”
Andrew Walker “Yes. So what happens then, tell us about that journey?”
TL “Erm from Arnos…”
Andrew Walker “Did you recognise the route you were taking?”
TL “No I can’t remember the route we took.”
Andrew Walker “So what happened?”
TL “Er we were driving back to Tottenham and then when we’ve got through that route, near to Tesco, where the crash was, well the driving, he was driving quite fast. Er it had a crash. We pulled over and then Jay got out of the car, walked around the car, got back in the car and I was just thinking like we were gonna call the AA or whatever it was. (inaudible) and carried on driving. I could tell the car was like gone like. You could hear it, it was driving off to the right a bit.”
Andrew Walker “Yes.”
TL “And I was thinking like what are you doing just pull over, but he was determined to get that car back. I asked him to let me out. Just tapped him, said goodbye and got out of the car and he just drove off in the car.”
.Andrew Walker “So where did you get out of the car?”
TL “Er I’d say just as he had the first collision. I dunno drove 20 meters from that, pulled over looked at the car, drove another 10 meters and then I’ve got out the car.”
Andrew Walker “What did the car collide with?”
TL “Er like a barrier that’s in the middle of both roads.”
Andrew Walker “Did the airbags go off in the car?”
TL “I don’t think so.”
Andrew Walker “So, so just so I understood it. There’s a collision, you drive another 10 meters, then another 20 meters then you get out or is it you drive another 20 meters and then got out of the car?”
TL “I’m not exactly sure how it was, but he drove, stopped, looked at the damage, drove a bit more and I got out.”
Andrew Walker “So drove, stopped, got out, looked at the damage at the car, got back in, and is that when you said you wanted to get out of the car?”
TL “Yep.”
Andrew Walker “So he drove a short distance did he and you got out?”
TL “Yeah.”
Andrew Walker “So just help me with this. When you got out of the car where were you? Do you remember where you were? because you would have had to work your way home.”
TL “Er well when I went to the police I showed them exactly where, where everything happened. I can’t really explain to you.”
Andrew Walker “Alright. Have we got a picture plan Ms H that the witness might be able to identify?”
Ms H”Um mm.”
Andrew Walker “I’m not sure that I’ve got..”
Ms H “Not right now Sir.”
Andrew Walker “I can put my hands on the exhibit. I don’t know if this (inaudible).”
Ms H “Sir it’s not in the appendices, but we had it previously.”
Andrew Walker “Yes. Now erm these are photographs of (inaudible)Road. Do you recognise them? If it helps this looks like (inaudible).”
TL “(Inaudiable)”
Andrew Walker “Down there? Well let’s just see if we can be clear about this. Do you recognise the barriers in the top?”
TL “Yeah.”
Andrew Walker “How do you recognise those?”
TL “Because that’s where the collision was.”
Andrew Walker “So, so the barriers. I’m looking at this photograph here members of the family. This photograph here showing the barriers. So is that where the collision occurred?”
TL “Yeah. And err and the bottom photograph, I think I got out of the car. I think I got out of the car here. I walked around the back of the car here and I got out the car here and I stood at the bus stop for a bit.”
Andrew Walker “Right, so what I’m going to ask you to do is to just mark on that photograph. Is that alright Ms H?
Ms H “It, it, it’s actually, er a copy that’s already been, I think it’s a copy that’s already being used. I can hand over mine, it’s smaller though, that’s the only thing.”
Andrew Walker “Well let’s just use this one. There don’t seem to be any marks on here that, that …”
Laurie Roach “It’s the officers.”
Ms H “Sir it’s the officers copy, she’s been using it for her notes.”
Andrew Walker “I see.”
Ms H “As opposed to making it an exhibit now.”
Andrew Walker “I’m not going to make it an exhibit. I don’t think we’re require to under the new act, the old act was more specific. I just wanted to um draw this, so um, just to hold this up to be clear, that’s where you got out of the car?”
TL “I think so yes.”
Andrew Walker “And then you walked across to the bus stop on the other side?”
TL “Yeah.”
Andrew Walker “And you waited there?”
TL “Yeah.”
Andrew Walker “Alright. I’m going to, I’m going to show you this right now. Ms H do you want to have a look?”
Ms H “I’ve actually got 4 additional copies.”
Andrew Walker “So you can see a line drawn…
Ms H “Erm Sir would it be possible to mark up one of the clean copies?”
Andrew Walker “Yes, I, I…”
Ms H “It’s not on this page, but I understand there’s markings elsewhere.”
Andrew Walker “No, if that’s a source of concern, I’m very sorry. These are the photographs you are looking at members of the family.”
Andrew Walker addresses TL “Just mark those that would be very helpful. If you put a large cross where you got out of the car and then another place… That’s perfect. Thank you very much indeed. Now members of the family it’s very hard to see, but on there are the markings where this witness got out of the car and then um moved across the road and you can see above it the collision. This witness er recollects the collision occurring.”
Ruth Lovell “I just want to get my bearings, sorry. And where did the,and where did he say the collision occurred, his barrier?”
TL “Yeah.”
Andrew Walker “Yes.”
Ruth Lovell “Wait a minute Gina, I just wanna get my bearings. Where’s erm IKEA on here, can you see it on here? I can’t get my bearings where that is.”
Andrew Walker “Well let’s not worry about it too much at the moment because we’re going to have other witnesses giving evidence, but what’s important is that this witness has identified from the photograph where he was …”
TL “If you’re looking at it, IKEA should be there.”
Andrew Walker “Sorry, so you know where IKEA is?”
TL “It should be there from the photo.”
Andrew Walker “Does that help you members of the family?”
Ruth Lovell “What over there?”
TL “If you’re looking at it that way it should be there. IKEA should be back here.”
Laurie Roach “So you’re standing where IKEA is, looking towards the barrier?”
Andrew Walker “Alright. So that is the evidence from this witness and I understand just to be clear that this barrier here, represents where the 1st collision, or the collision took place, the car then drove a short distance. Mr Ball then got out , looked around the car, then got back in, the car then drove a short distance, and you asked to get out. Where you asked to get out you have drawn on this map here.
TL “Yeah.”
Andrew Walker “Alright, so that’s clear.”Did you see what happened to Mr Ball after that?”
TL “I sat at the bus stop for a bit and I could hear the car going because the car wasn’t working properly and er you can see there’s like a little bend there. I couldn’t see where the car really ended up. But when I left the bus stop, you could walk a couple of meters and you can see right around there and like I could still see the car was there but it was on the other side of the road and when I’ve walked up there the car was empty.”
Andrew Walker “So you were waiting at the bus stop. You could hear the car and then at some point did you walk up to see what had happened?”
TL “Yeah because I’m standing at that bus stop and er, because I was half drunk anyway, I was standing there thinking ‘God what’s just happened, and that bus stop was on the wrong side of the road for me so I ended up walking that way anyway.”
Andrew Walker “And as you walked around the corner you could see the car is that right?”
TL “Yeah.”
Andrew Walker “Thank you very much indeed. Now did you see any sign of Mr Ball?
TL “No.”
Andrew Walker “Did you go up and look in the car?”
TL “Yeah.”
Andrew Walker “Were the doors to the car open or closed, as far as you can remember?”
TL “Closed.”
Andrew Walker “Closed. Was the car engine running or not?”
TL “No.”
Andrew Walker “And there was no sign of Mr Ball that you could see?”
TL “It was off.”
Andrew Walker “There was no sign of Mr Ball that you could see?”
TL “No.”
Andrew Walker “So what happened then? Where did you go from there?”
TL “Er to Tottenham Hale and then erm to my house.”
Andrew Walker “So you walked did you?”
TL “Yeah.”
Andrew Walker “Thank you very much.”
TL “When I walked up there, I think in all the time I walked down Tottenham Hale, only 2 or 3 cars went passed me.”
Andrew Walker “Alright. Thank you very much indeed. Well members of the family this is an opportunity for you to now ask questions.”
Alexandria Harrison “Right erm first of all can we look at some CCTV please, at 02:02 (inaudible).”
Daniel Rosello “Is this at the Fox?”
Alexandria Harrison “Yes.”
Andrew Walker “I think your going to have to move positions to be able to see it. May I suggest just in that corner. If you stand, if you stand next to the, to the officer, then that microphone should pick up your voice. That’s it, that should pick up your voice. Thank you.”
Ms H “Sir just from a practical perspective to save time, if there are other clips to view…”
Andrew Walker “Yes.”
Ms H “The officer can have them in advance he can hopefully have them lined up and ready.”
Andrew Walker “Yes.”
Ms H “I think that each time it takes a little bit of time to identify.”
Andrew Walker “Yes.”
Ms H “Yes.”
Andrew Walker “If you’re able, if you know the time…”
Alexandria Harrison “The thing is we saw a compilation disc…”
Andrew Walker “Yes.”
Alexandria Harrison ” And then we saw individual ones. So they’re on different discs and different times.”
Andrew Walker “So what is your timing on it?”
Alexandria Harrison “The timing we want now is the first compilation disc, no sorry, the timing now, is the camera at the front of the Fox pub, at 02:02 which shows the ambulance arriving. The point (inaudible) is 02:06 where the person who got knocked unconscious was taken to the ambulance but the point is I want to see if this is V or not please.”
TL “I don’t think V got into the ambulance though.
Alexandria Harrison “You don’ think he got put in the ambulance?”
TL “I don”t think he did, I’ll tell you if it’s him though, I don’t think he did.”
Alexandra Harrison “Okay.”
Daniel Rosello Inaudible.
Alexandria Harrison “External front.”.
Daniel Rosello.”At 2:02 or 2:06?”
Andrew Walker “2:06.”
Alexandria Harrison “2:06 please.”
Andrew Walker “Thank you.”
Daniel Rosello (Inaudible.) 2;06, is that the right camera?”
Alexandria Harrison “Yes.”
Ruth Lovell “Can you see that Okay. I just wanna know if you can see it?
Alexandria Harrison “So it’s pointless really because we could see that before. He’s not going to be able to make that at all.”
Ruth Lovell “Well can you see no, or can you yes?”
TL ” No.”
Alexandria Harrison “Okay it’s pointless.”
TL“The cameras are useless.”
Alexandria Harrison “Yeah.”
Ruth Lovell “Well that is innit? You haven’t seen CCTV before though from the pub?”
TL ” No.”
Ruth Lovell “So you’re saying it’s useless like we know…”
Andrew Walker “No, no, no, no, no let’s stop this now.
Ruth Lovell “Well I’m just saying.”
Andrew Walker “No, no, no. this is an opportunity for you to ask questions of this witness, not to argue with anyone else in court. Have you got anymore questions for this witness?”
Ruth Lovell “Yes.”
Alexandria Harrison “Yes. 1:46 camera 10 please.”
Ms H “Sir forgive me, I missed what the question was on this part of the…?”
Alexandria Harrison “It was to see whether …”
Andrew Walker “It was V who got put in the ambulance, but it wasn’t possible to see.”
Ms H “Thank you.”
Daniel Rosello “1:46 camera 10?”
Alexandria Harrison “Yes please.”
TL “Is that where V got punched?”
Alexandria Harrison “You’re gonna see it in a minute. Do you recognise who he’s fighting with?”
TL“Err that’ a different location.”
Alexandria Harrison “Do you know who he’s fighting with though?”
TL “I don’t know who any of them are.”
Alexandria Harrison “You don’t know who he’s fighting with . Can you see the clothing? Erm like he’s wearing a rucksack isn’t he, the one he is fighting with?Can we go back sorry, I just want to concentrate on the clothing.”
TL” That wasn’t V…”
Alexandria Harrison “Can we go back a bit please?.”
Andrew Walker “So the question is do you recognise …”
TL “No.”
Andrew Walker “That person?”
TL “No.”
Alexandria Harrison “The person fighting.”
Ruth Lovell “Or both of them?”
TL “No. None of them.”
Alexandria Harrison “Both of them?”
Ruth Lovell “Or either one of them?”
TL “No.”
Alexandria Harrison “So can we just concentrate on the clothing then and make a note of the clothing as it’s relevant in Dadyals. Oh sorry and can we see the rucksack as well please and what’s on his back.
Alexandria Harrison “Jeans, dark coat.
Ruth Lovell “Yeah we’ve seen the rest, can’t find it now.”
Alexandria Harrison “And you don’t know who that is?”
TL “He who’s wearing the coat? No I don’t know who that is.”
Alexandria Harrison “No. Okay. Or any of those two, no?”
TL “No.”
Alexandria Harrison “Okay. Erm sorry where did you see V fighting?”
TL “Where the cameras pointing down. Where he got knocked out is probably a bit closer to us.”
Alexandria Harrison “So it would be out of that shot?”
TL “Probably, yeah. Or it’d be right there.”
Alexandria Harrison “Okay.”
TL “But it wasn’t an altercation like that. He was just standing there and the guy punched him straight in the head and knocked him out.”
Ruth Lovell “You don’t know them two no?”
TL “No.”
Alexandria Harrison “Right that’s all we want on the CCTV.”
TL “Okay.”
Alexandria Harrison “Yeah.”
Andrew Walker “Do you want to step back in the witness box where you will be more comfortable there?”
Alexandria Harrison “Erm roughly what time did you see Ambrose at Dadyals, approximately.”
TL ” When, where?”
Alexandria Harrison “Dadyals. Erm the shop.”
TL “Arnos Grove?”
Alexandria Harrison “Yes.”
TL “I don’t know about the times.”
Alexandria Harrison “Roughly, not even a rough estimate? No?”
TL “I’d only guess and get it (inaudible) wrong.”
Alexandria Harrison “Okay that’s fine, that’s fine. Erm did you meet, you said you did not meet Ambrose before Dadylas.”
TL “No.”
Alexandria Harrison “You did not see him at the pub at all?”
TL “No.”
Alexandria Harrison “At the Fox?”
TL “No.”
Alexandria Harrison “No. Erm what time did you arrive at the Fox and who did you arrive with?”
TL “I don’t know hat time we arrived at, but I arrived with D and V and L, just that group of friends.”
Alexandria Harrison “Who did you leave with did you say?”
TL “Er when I left I was in the toilet with a bouncer, because I had just got punched in the nose in the smoking area and when I left I left by myself and then, that’s when I saw V getting chased round the car by Jay.”
Alexandria Harrison “Erm so from the Fox where did you go then, and who with?”
TL “Er my friend E and his cousin, I don’t know his name, we got in his car and he drove us to Southgate and dropped us off outside Charcoal Grill.”.
Alexandria Harrison “Dropped us. who’s us?
TL “Me and D.”
Alexandria Harrison “So D was with you?”
TL “Yeah.”
Alexandria Harrison “So D was already in the car. Yeah. Er what speed were you going, approximately, when Ambrose was in the car, you know if he was driving fast before the first impact,what sort of speed would you say he was driving?”
TL “A 100.”
Alexandria Harrison “100 m.p.h.?”
TL “Yeah.”
Alexandria Harrison “Are you sure?”
TL “No, but he was driving fast.”
Alexandria Harrison “He was driving fast. Do you. Do you remember if he was wearing a seat belt?”
TL “Yeah, proba..”
Alexandria Harrison “He was wearing a seat belt?”
TL “Yeah i think so.”
Alexandria Harrison “Er so when you had the first impact at 100 m.p.h. up by Tesco..”
TL “I dunno if we crashed then. I think it was on like a turn. We crashed at 40 probably. 30, I dunno.”
Alexandria Harrison “Sorry. So when it crashed into the barrier, that you showed us, what mileage were you going at roughly?”
TL “40.”
Alexandria Harrison “40 m.p.h. at that stage?
TL “I dunno, I dunno. I’d say so.”
Alexandria Harrison “(inaudible) It’s just that there’s a big difference between 40 and 100 m.p.h.
TL “We didn’t crash going at 100. No way. But we were driving at them speeds to get there though.”
Alexandria Harrison “It was obviously fast enough to worry you?”
TL “Yeah.”
Alexandria Harrison “Yeah, fast enough to worry you. Erm so after the first impact, erm you said you then got out the car, you both looked around the car. Erm how long were you out of the car looking around it?”
TL “Jay just looked at the car and walked around it. A couple of seconds, 20 seconds, something like that.”
Alexandria Harrison “Er. What damage. Sorry. Yes, when you got out of the car, and you both looked around it, what damage was there to the car at that time?”
TL “I didn’t get out of the car.”
Alexandria Harrison “So just Ambrose got out of the car?”
TL “Yeah.”
Alexandria Harrison “Looked around. You stayed in the car, bearing in mind, he’d been driving erratically, just crashed, you stayed in the car…”
TL “Yeah.”
Alexandria Harrison “Ambrose got out, looked around it, then he got back in..”
TL “Got back in the car.”
Alexandria Harrison “Then what happened when he got back in the car?”
TL “He was just stressed about his car and he just drove, he carried on driving his car.”
Alexandria Harrison “So how long were you in the car before before you decided to get out of it?”
TL “It could be a minute.”
Alexandria Harrison “So you were in the car for about a minute before getting out of it?”
TL “I’d say so yeah.”
Alexandria Harrison “You got out of it where?”
TL “Near where the crash is. Just drove off, (inaudible), just the bit down here (indicating where the location is on a map).
Alexandria Harrison “So where you’ve shown us by the picture. We’ve got the bus stop.”
TL “Yeah.”
Alexandria Harrison “Yeah and then we’ve got what I think the first collision…”
TL “Yeah.”
Alexandria Harrison “Sorry. We’ve got the bus stop, then we’ve got where the first collision was and then you said there was a slight corner, you could hear the car, but you couldn’t see it?”
TL “Yeah.”
Alexandria Harrison “Yeah. Erm, so, sorry I’ve lost (inaudible)…”
TL “The car wasn’t driving properly then anyway. It was just driving slow like (inaudible), it was driving.”
Alexandria Harrison “So it was like chuggering?”
TL “Yeah.”
Alexandria Harrison “Did what did you hear…what sounds did you hear?”
TL “It sounded like it was just scraping along the floor. ”
Alexandria Harrison “So there were scraping sounds?”
TL “Yeah.”
Alexandria Harrison “So was the wheel on the car at this point or had that already gone?”
TL “What do you mean?”
Alexandria Harrison “Do you know where you said you heard the scraping sound?”
TL “Yes.”
Alexandria Harrison “Did the car come off in that barrier, the wheel sorry, come off in that barrier where you’ve shown us, what the police have shown us?”
TL “I think so yeah.”
Alexandria Harrison “You think so?”
TL “Yeah (inaudible).
Alexandria Harrison “Yeah, so what was the state of the other car, when you went, you said you (inaudible). Did you notice anything else about the car, the state of the car?”
TL “When I got out the car and walked passed the car to go home, the car was empty. I didn’t notice the wheel missing off the car.”
Alexandria Harrison “You didn’t see a wheel missing off the car?”
TL “No, I didn’t notice.”
Alexandria Harrison “Erm how long after sitting at the bus stop, did make your way over to the car. How long? What was the time lapse in between the bus stop, and getting to the actual car?”
TL “I don’t know exactly. I was there for a bit. Probably 5 minutes, 10 minutes. I didn’t stay there particularly too long.”
Alexandria Harrison “So roughly, if you had to guess?”
TL “About 5/10 minutes.”
Alexandria Harrison “So if we say 5 minutes to be on the safe side, yeah. So we’ll say 5 minutes instead of 10 minutes. So you were at the bus stop for 5 minutes yeah and then from the bus stop, after about 5 minutes you went to the crash…”
TL “Yeah.”
Alexandria Harrison “And Ambrose wasn’t there.
TL “No.”
Alexandria Harrison “No. Er what did you do at the car?”
TL “Er walking down, looked in the car, no one was in there. Was thinking ‘Ah what the fucks just happened.”
Ruth Lovell “Er can I just ask you why you didn’t get out the car when he hit it first, when he crashed it first, the first time?”
TL “Don’t know.”
Ruth Lovell “Don’t know. Thank you.”
Alexandria Harrison “What side of the car was Ambroses’ … Erm what side of the car was the, where was the damage? What side was it ? If you could just describe the damage that you saw to that car?”
TL ” I think it was on this side, on the right.”
Alexandria Harrison “Sorry…”
TL “I think it was this side on the right. Marks on the side of his car.”
Alexandria Harrison “So what were marks on the side of the car, was there anything else you noticed?. Were there any other marks on the car?”
TL “I can’t remember right now.”
Alexandria Harrison “What about the tyre, the wheels?”
TL “I know one of the wheels fell off, but when I walked passed the car, I didn’t notice the wheel off the car.”
Alexandria Harrison “You didn’t notice the wheel off the car on the drivers side?”
TL “No I didn’t see it.”
Alexandria Harrison “When you went to the car, where was the car? You’ve shown us where … Where was the car when you actually went to see it, where was it?”
TL “Where I was told. It was on the wrong side of the road. Side ways, like blocking both lanes kinda thing.”
Alexandria Harrison “So it was sideways like this…”
TL “Like if we were going that way and a cars going this way, his car was like that.”
Alexandria Harrison “So when you went to the car did you go round to the drivers side?”
TL “No.”
Alexandria Harrison “No.”
TL “Walked passed to the passenger side, looked in, opened the door. I took my grinder and cigarettes off the seat.Went back in the road and carried on walking.
Ruth Lovell “Weren’t you worried about Ambrose, where Ambrose …”
TL “To be honest I was thinking he’s either run that way where I’m going or he’s run that way, like away.”
Ruth Lovell “Weren’t you worried in case he hurt himself ?”
TL “Well straight afterwards when I went to the shop to get credit I called Jared and I knew he knew. So I told him what happened, he said I’m gonna call him and find out what happened.”
Ruth Lovell “You didn’t think to look for him, or look around the area to see if he was hurt?”
TL “I, I didn’t think what happened.”
Ruth Lovell “Sorry?”
TL “I didn’t think what happened would happen.”
Ruth Lovell “No I mean after the crash . You said twice he crashed the car. So both times. You weren’t worried when you went to the car and didn’t see him there?”
TL “I was worried but I wasn’t, I didn’t look so …”
Ruth Lovell ” Just to check and see if he was unconscious, anything. You didn’t think no?”
TL “Before I got out the car?”
Ruth Lovell “No, no. After you went back from the bus stop back to the car and seen he wasn’t there?”
TL “I, I, thought he’s run home.”
Ruth Lovell “Okay.”
Alexandria Harrison “Erm when you got in the car did you take your rucksack off?”
TL “Don’t know, don’t think so, if I had one on.”
Alexandria Harrison “You did have one on it’s on CCTV.”
Andrew Walker “Did you have a rucksack with you that night?”
TL “I can’t remember. I don’t think so.”
Andrew walker “No. Right. Alright.”
Alexandria Harrison “Okay. Um when you got in the car did you notice a coat on the seat, on the drivers seat?”
TL “I didn’t notice one.”
Alexandria Harrison “You didn’t sit on one?”
TL “I don’t know, I don’t know.”
Alexandria Harrison “Oh yes, can we go to Dadyals please?
Daniel Rosello “What part?”
Alexandria Harrison “Can we go back to 2 er …”
Andrew Walker “I thought we weren’t doing videos?”
Alexandria Harrison “Yes because it’s about the rucksack, which is what he was wearing that day.It’s on there.”
Ruth Lovell “In Dadyals.”
Andrew Walker “Alright. If we’re going to be looking at more video footage can we deal with it now, rather than have the witness move back and forth through the court, that’s all?”
Alexandria Harrison “Oh okay then. I thought we had to deal with certain segments”
Andrew Walker “No, no, what I’m saying is bearing in mind we’ve got this afternoon, it’s 1:17, we’ve got until about 4:30 this afternoon, to hear somewhere approaching 20 witnesses.
Alexandria Harrison “Okay.”
Andrew Walker “And if you’re interested in whether this witness was or was not wearing a rucksack, I’m going to be asking in due course ‘What’s the relevance of this? How is it in anyway relevant to what happened to Mr Ball.”
Ruth Lovell “He was the last person to see my Son alive and he was wearing a rucksack.”
Alexandria Harrison “(inaudible) and there were 2 rucksacks found, one with the body and one (inaudible), we want to see it.”
Ruth Lovell “And we saw him in Dadyals wearing it with Ambrose, that’s why”
Alexandria Harrison “And outside the pub this person is seen wearing (inaudible) rucksack to what T was wearing in Dadyals.”
Andrew Walker “So, so again you’l have to help me. What’s the relevance, are you saying that this witness was with Mr Ambrose.”
Ruth Lovell “He was with him 9 minutes before he crashed the car.”
Andrew Walker “Yes we know that. But hat’s the significance of the rucksack?”
Alexandria Harrison “Because it shows, we just tried to show that the 2 people fighting outside the pub were T and V. The footage at Dadyals has the rucksack on, it has the same clothing on.”
Andrew Walker “That may be, that may be the case. How does it help me answer the question what was the sequence of events that lead to the …”
TL “When V er got knocked out,
Andrew Walker “Just a moment…”
TL “when I’ve gone to help him he’s got up…”
Andrew Walker “Just a moment…”
TL “he tried to swing for me because …”
Andrew Walker “Just …”
TL “He probably didn’t know who I was …”
Andrew Walker “Mr L just a minute.”
TL “Then (inaudible) said what you doing that’s T…”
Andrew Walker “Just a minute.”
TL “So that’s probably what you saw”
Andrew Walker “Just a minute. I have to ask the questions the sequence of events that led to the cause of death. I don’t understand why, whoever it was in that video fighting, how is that in anyway relevant to what happened to Mr Ball”
Ruth Lovell “He just said that Ambrose (inaudible) out.”
Alexandria Harrison “It’s not, but he just said that wasn’t him and that wasn’t V, he didn’t recognise those people, which means we have to take his word for it unless we can prove that he is actually lying.
Andrew Walker “But, you see, yeah …”
Alexandria Harrison “That’s what we’re trying to prove.”
Andrew Walker “You, you don’t have to prove in this court, anything.
Alexandria Harrison “Okay.”
Andrew Walker “You don’t have to prove anything.”
Alexandria Harrison “Okay.”
Andrew Walker “All that I have to do is work out from the evidence that I hear, is what was the sequence of events that led to the cause of death. I’m not here to try and evaluate whether or not the conduct of those outside the Fox public house was good, bad or otherwise. My task here, is from the evidence, to see if I can work out what was the sequence of events that led to the cause of death.
Ruth Lovell “(inaudible)”.
Andrew Walker “So whose got a rucksack, whose fighting outside, unless it involved Mr Ambrose Ball himself, it’snot relevant. Whether or not a witness is one of 2 witnesses fighting outside a pub is not relevant to what happened to Mr Ball.”
Alexandria Harrison “So how can, then …”
Ruth Lovell “(inaudible) that photo in Dadyals was the last time, apparently, 9 minutes before he crashed (inaudible) Ambrose was seen alive.”
Andrew Walker “Yes. I’ve just said that, yes. We’ve got the CCTV …”
Ruth Lovell “Right but we don’t believe that video wasn’t taken that night, the camera wasn’t working. Right (inaudible)”
Andrew Walker “,Right so the idea is all of the people in Dadyals, on that occasion, happen to be in the same place …”
Ruth Lovell “Mmm.”
Andrew Walker “On another day?”
Ruth Lovell “Yeah.”
Andrew Walker “At roughly the same time?”
Ruth Lovell “Mmm, even the clothes aren’t matching in Dadyals.”
Andrew Walker “Alright. Well let’s put the CCTV footage completely to one side. What you say may be inaccurate, it may be from a different day.This witness …”
Ruth Lovell “I’m saying that ……………….
Andrew Walker “What I need to be able to do is to listen to relevant evidence. and it’s not going to help me to understand who was fighting who outside the pub.That’s not going to help answer the sequence of events that led directly to the cause of death.”
Ruth Lovell “It was 9 minutes before the Ambrose crashed, he was with him. Isn’t that an issue?”
Andrew Walker “No.”
Ruth Lovell “Oh I thought that’s leading up to Ambroses’ death?.”
Andrew Walker “No. 2 people seen fighting outside a public house…
Ruth Lovell “I’m not talking about the pub, I’m talking about Dadyals with the rucksack, it’s 9 minutes before Ambrose crashed the car.”
Andrew Walker “But you’re saying…”
Ruth Lovell “That’ leading up to his death.”
Andrew Walker “You’re saying the video footage is wrong. It shows another day?”
Ruth Lovell “Yeah.”
Andrew Walker “So why are we troubling ourselves looking at it at all…”
Ruth Lovell “So…”
Andrew Walker “if you’re saying it shows a different day?”
Alexandria Harrison “Right can I explain why?.”
Andrew Walker “Yes. That’s all I’m trying to understand.”
Alexandria Harrison “The reason is because we’re supposed to accept as evidence what these people say under oath. Now this is evidence, you’re classing this as evidence, so I thought the relevance of that was to prove that that piece of the evidence wasn’t correct.
Ruth Lovell “And it’s on a different night.”
Alexandria Harrison “That’s the point I was trying to make. Because it’s evidence isn’t it?”
Andrew Walker “So what are you suggesting? Are you suggesting that this witness is not telling the truth in the events that he’s described in getting into the car …”
Ruth Lovell “Well by his statements her said that he and D got in the car, got in Ambroses’ car…”
Andrew Walker “Not…”
Ruth Lovell “So ho can he do that?”
Andrew Walker “I’m. This witness is giving evidence on oath, today…”
Ruth Lovell “Mmm.”
Andrew Walker “In this court, that’s the evidence I’m interested in.”
Alexandria Harrison “Okay.”
.Andrew Walker “If you want to ask him why he.made different statements at different times, that’s fine.”
Alexandria Harrison “Okay.”
Andrew Walker “The point I am trying to help you with, is that it is not going to help understand the sequence of events, by bringing every single witness who was in the Fox public house and try to show in some way they are not telling the truth…”
Alexandria Harrison “Yeah.”
Ruth Lovell “(inaudible).”
Andrew Walker “That’s not going to help us in this process because we are not a criminal court and we’re not here to perform that task.”
Ruth Lovell “(inaudible).”
Andrew Walker “Now Ms K am I missing something here?”
Ms K “I, I’m not sure where the line of questioning goes to Sir, but there maybe further explanation.”
Ruth Lovell “(inauible).”
Andrew Walker “So, alright thank you. So in terms of the video footage at Dadyals are you saying that it’s taken on a different day, it’s not relevant, so therefore showing this witness…”
Ruth Lovell “That’s not he last time Ambrose was alive there, no. That night.”
Andrew Walker “No, right, so therefore showing this witness footage from Dadyals…”
Ruth Lovell “(inaudible) another night…”
Andrew Walker “No no, just bear with me. That you say is not him at all on that evening, it is in fact taken on a different evening. How is that going to help us today work out the sequence of events that led to the cause of death?”
Ruth Lovell “Then that means he wasn’t in the car with Ambrose on the night that he died, somebody else was there. Because that didn’t happen on the night. It was another time. It was Ambrose but it was another night. It wasn’t the night, because we went back to Dadyals and the cameras wasn’t working. They were refurbishing.”
Andrew Walker “Alright. This is not the time for us to make submissions, it’s the time for us to try…”
Ruth Lovell “What’s submissions sorry?”
Andrew Walker “Sorry it’s a legal term.”
Ruth Lovell “Okay.”
Andrew Walker “At the end of the inquest you’ll have the opportunity to say what you think the correct conclusion should be…”
Ruth Lovell “Okay.”
Andrew Walker “And that’s when you can bring an argument about what you say happened and the consequences of that. But our process here is to try to understand from the evidence, what was the sequence of events that led to and caused the death. And the point I was bringing to your attention is if you’re saying that the footage at Dadyals is not even on the same day, then there’s little point in showing this witness that footage, because it will make no help at all. Would that be right?”
Alexandria Harrison “Yep.”
Andrew Walker “So what other questions do you have for this witness?”
Alexandria Harrison “Right I didn’t know…”
Andrew Walker “Are you going to suggest for instance that he was not in the car that night”
Alexandria Harrison “No I’m not going to suggest anything like that at all.”
Andrew Walker “No because this is an opportunity, because if you are suggesting that the witness is not telling the truth about where he was, and you think he wasn’t in the car …”
Alexandria Harrison “No I’m not saying that.”
Andrew Walker “with Mr Ball during…”
Alexandria Harrison “No.”
Andrew Walker “During the time, during the last point up until the collision, this is the time to put it to the witness.”
Ruth Lovell “(inaudible)
Alexandria Harrison “Right that’s what I, because I thought we couldn’t ask erm questions, but seeing as we’ve just been told we can, what I noticed in the bundles is that the police left out the original transcript of his…”
Andrew Walker “No, no, no,no, no.”
Ruth Lovell “So we can’t ask questions then.”
Alexandria Harrison “So we can’t ask questions on what he said?”
Ruth Lovell “inaudible.”
Andrew Walker “You can ask him questions about the sequence of events that led to and caused the death.”
Alexandria Harrison “Okay.
Andrew Walker “So you are accepting are you, that this witness, was in the car with Mr Ball, in the collision he described as taking place?”
Alexandria Harrison “We don’t know.”
Ruth Lovell “We don’t know we haven’t seen it, so we don’t know.”
Alexandria Harrison “We don’t know.”
Ruth Lovell “We’re trying to find out.”
Andrew Walker “Alright.”
Alexandria Harrison “Especially if you go by ANPR and all that and what we’ve heard now, it seems impossible.”
Andrew Walker “Let’s go back then to further questions that you have for this witness. Was there anything else you wanted to ask him about the sequence of events
Alexandria Harrison “Yes I …”
Andrew Walker “That he described?”
Alexandria Harrison “Yes I do. Erm did you at any point, during that journey with Ambrose stop and erm take any drugs?”
TL “Yeah.”
Alexandria Harrison “You did? So can you please tell us at which point in that journey from Arnos Grove to the crash site did you stop and take cocaine?”
TL “I think it was when we left Arnos Grove we stopped somewhere.”
Alexandria Harrison “So it was after you left Arnos Grove?”
TL “I think.”
Alexandria Harrison “So where did you stop?”
TL “I don’t know.”
Alexandria Harrison “How long did you stop for?”
TL “I don’t know.”
Alexandria Harrison “Roughly?”
TL “I dunno about 5 minutes maximum.”
Alexandria Harrison “So you, so once you left Arnos Grove, you stopped for 5 minutes …”
TL “I think. If my…In the interview I did before it’s probably much clearer than now. It’ been ages.
Alexandria Harrison “Well yeah it said 5 minutes at the bus stop, 10. Well between 5 and 10 (inaudible). (inaudible) it was narrowed down to 5 or 10.
Andrew Walker “How did you take the cocaine?”
TL “He just put it on his hand.”
Andrew Walker “Both of you put it on…”
TL “No.”
Andrew Walker “He put it on his hand …”
TL “Yeah.”
Andrew Walker “So was the cocaine bought at Arnos Grove?”
TL “Nah he had it already.”
Andrew Walker “You had it already. Alright.”
Alexandria Harrison “Did you take any coke?”
TL “No.”
Alexandria Harrison “You didn’t?”
TL “No.”
Andrew Walker “Now I think it’s important you understand you don’t have to answer any question that might incriminate you. That’s very important, you don’t have to answer any such question if one is put to you, so bear that in mind…”
TL “Yeah.”
Andrew Walker “When you’re answering these questions.”
Ruth Lovell “Can I ask who you were with at Southgate?”
TL “Er D.”
Ruth Lovell “Just D.”
TL “Yeah.”
Ruth Lovell “(inaudible), where was that? How did you meet up with Ambrose?”
TL “He was at Southgate already when we got there.”
Ruth Lovell “What before you?”
TL “I think so yeah. Or he was following our car.”
Ruth Lovell “Well was he or wasn’t he?”
TL “Well when me and D were talking, we just seen him there.
Ruth Lovell “Oh so he was there before you then?”
TL “Yeah I’m sure yeah.”
Ruth Lovell “Er did you see anybody else with Ambrose?
TL “Nah.”
Ruth Lovell “was it just you 3 at Arnos Grove, anybody else?”
TL “No in Southgate, D never come …”
Ruth Lovell “In Southgate sorry.”
TL “Yeah we were just there talking. D’s gone into the kebab shop, into the toilet.”
Ruth Lovell “Okay, so just you, D and erm …”
TL “And Ambrose yeah.”
Alexandria Harrison “What at Southgate?”
TL “Yeah.”
Alexandria Harrison “And then you went to Arnos Grove?”
TL “Yeah.”
Alexandria Harrison “From Southgate you all went to Arnos Grove?”
TL “No just me and Ambrose.”
Alexandria Harrison “Right so how long were you in Southgate for sorry?”
Ruth Lovell “Roughly.”
TL “10 minutes.”
Alexandria Harrison “Erm with Ambrose?”
TL “10 minutes.”
Alexandria Harrison “Yeah and straight from there you went straight to Arnos Grove?.”
TL “Yeah.”
Alexandria Harrison “Yeah. And from that you stopped to take some coke. You then started driving (inaudible) miles, quite fast speed … Erm sorry, did you, was Ambrose driving at fast speed before he took the coke or was he driving at a regular speed before he stopped to take the coke?”
TL “No he was driving fast before.
Alexandria Harrison “He was driving fast before …”
TL “Yeah.”
Alexandria Harrison “So he drove fast, stopped the car, stopped for a couple of minutes …”
TL “(inaudible) I’ve never been in a car that’s going that fast yet.”
Alexandria Harrison “So it was definitely fast?”
TL “Yeah.”
Ruth Lovell “Sorry you’ve never been in a car that fast?”
TL “Yeah like it was flying.”
Ruth Lovell “Really. Okay.”
Alexandria Harrison “Okay. So you left Arnos Grove, erm Arnos Grove, flew stopped to take coke, flew again crashed into the barrier, Ambrose got out, looked around the car, went about another 20 yards, you got out, Ambrose continued, you went to the bus stop. After about 5 or 10 minutes you, sorry and while you were sat there you heard screeching along the road. You’ve then within 5 or 10 minutes gone back around to the car, by the time you got to the car nobody was there. Is that what you’re saying?”
TL “Yeah.”
Alexandria Harrison “Thank you.”
Ruth Lovell “You walked home. You walked home from there. How long did it take you to get home roughly?”
TL “About half an hour, could’ve took longer.”
Alexandria Harrison “Erm did you go by bus?”
TL “No, walked. If you walk straight down the end of that road you come to Tottenham Hale Retail Park, I walked straight through it. Through seven sisters up to Tottenham.”
Ruth Lovell “So you didn’t get on the bus no?”
TL “No.”
Alexandria Harrison “So you just went to the bus stop. Did you intend to get a bus?”
TL “No. I was just thinking, I was just sat there thinking like ‘Wow what just happened like”
Alexandria Harrison “Do you remember what Ambrose bought when he was in the shop?”
TL “I think he bought a beer.”
Alexandria Harrison “Ambrose bought a beer?”
TL “I think, I dunno. I know he bought me a beer.”
Alexandria Harrison “Okay.”
Ruth Lovell “How many people in Dadyals, well I say how many people. Was there anybody else at Dadyals when you both went to Dadyals?”
TL “I can’t remember.”
Ruth Lovell “Okay.”
Andrew Walker. “Alright.”
Christopher Harrison “Yes, can I just ask a question?”
Andrew Walker “Go on.”
Christopher Harrison “When you, when you were sat at the bus stop, er did any cars come past, going towards where Ambrose went?”
TL “Not sure. Not sure. I don’t think so.”
Christopher Harrison “No because I was just thinking, if he could have been picked up by someone on the way through or something.
Andrew Walker “I thought you said 2 or 3 cars passed?you”
TL “That’s when I was walking, not when I was at the bus stop.”
Andrew Walker “Oh yeah. So after you were sat …”
Christopher Harrison “Oh so when you were walking from the car?”
TL “When I walked from the bus stop, home, I’m sure there were like 3 cars, 2 cars passed me on that road.”
Andrew Walker “So just, just to be clear about this, you walked from the bus stop to the car, did any cars pass you on your journey to where the car had come to a rest?”
TL “From the bus stop to the car?”
Andrew Walker “Yes.”
TL “No.”
Andrew Walker “There you are. But on your way home, 2 or 3 cars passed you?”
TL “Yeah.”
Andrew Walker “Thank you.”
Christopher Harrison “And did you see, did you see the wheel actually embedded in the railings or not?”
TL “No.”
Alexandria Harrison “You didn’t see the wheel in the railings?”
TL “When he’s crashed yeah?”
Alexandria Harrison “Yeah.”
TL “The car didn’t stick in the railings, like it’s crashed and carried on going, and then stopped and looked at the car.”
Ruth Lovell “What it didn’t, it wasn’t stuck in the railings?”
TL “No.”
Alexandria Harrison “What the railings you’ve just shown us in the picture…”
TL “Yeah he’s hit it and carried on going. It didn’t get stuck in the railings.”
Alexandria Harrison “Were all 4 wheels on the car?”
TL “No. When he’s hit the railings, maybe the wheel come off, but he’s carried on moving.”
Ruth Lovell “But you never saw the wheel come off?”
Alexandria Harrison “So did you see the wheel come off? Did you see it in the railing?”
TL “No.”
Alexandria Harrison “So you saw no wheel in the railings?”
TL “I just saw it in the picture.”
Alexandria Harrison “You saw it in the pictures, not in the railing?”
Ruth Lovell “inaudible.”
TL “No.”
Alexandria Harrison “Thank you.”
Ruth Lovell “Inaudible.”
Andrew Walker ” Er Ms H was there anything you wanted to ask?”
Ms H “Yes please. Just a few questions Sir. Erm Mr L you’ve er made a number of statements to the police yes?”
TL “Yeah.”
Ms H “Have you had a chance to look at those this morning?”
TL “Yeah.”
Ms H “I wonder if Mr L can have the statement dated the 27th January please, it’s 3 pages. Do you have that?”
Andrew Walker “I think you’ve got a copy of it.”
Ms H “In the top right it should say 27/1/15. Mr Roach might help you. Alright before we have a look at that let me just ask you this. From the point at which you got into Mr Balls’ car at Southgate station, until the point at which you’ve described as the first crash, at, at any point during that time, did Mr Ball tell you that he’d been injured, or been in a fight and had an injury?”
TL “No.”
Ms H “Was he driving or appeared in any way that looked as though he might have been injured?”
TL “No. He asked me if I wanted to come back to his friends house or whatever.”
Ms H “He asked you if you would go back to his friends. Alright. And then when you crashed the first time and you said Mr Ball got out of the car and he walked around but you stayed in the vehicle, did he tell you at that point he’d hurt himself or been injured?”
TL “No.”
Ms H “And when you got back in the car and drove the 20 yards, was there anything in the way he was driving or behaving that made you think that he’d been hurt?”
TL “No, just, I was just thinking he wanted to get that car back to his house.”
Ms H “Alright. And, and just to help you Mr L, if you go to that statement, if you go to the second page, turn over and it starts at the top ‘Whilst there Jay saw a car. You got that. That, that’s at the top of the page?”
TL “Yeah.”
Ms H “Alright and what you say there is ‘That whilst there’ picking up the page before, you just explained that you were at the shop near the shop at Arnos Grove yeah. Whilst there Jay saw a car with 2 of his friends. I knew one of the males as Barry as I know his uncle. I went into the shop. The conversation must have lasted at least half an hour. It was a friendly chat and Jay seemed fine. Yes?”
TL “Yeah.”
Ms H “And then you go on to describe there, that at some point after dropping D off, Jay had a line of coke in the car, I didn’t. Is that what you were telling us a little while ago?”
TL “No, that’s, that’
Ms H “Is that another occasion?”
TL “That statement there, that’s why I changed it because …”
Ms H “Okay.”
TL “Because I was drunk at the time. It’s the next day when I spoke to…”
Ms H “And you couldn’t remember.”
TL “Yeah and D told me nah it never happened.”
Ms H “Alright, but er at some point, what you had described was that Mr Ball took a line of cocaine in the car?”
TL “Yeah.”
Ms H “Then you go on to say that the journey continued at quite a fast pace and that Jay was driving at 100 m.p.h. in a very erratic manner, er and, and you put your seat belts on?”
TL “Mm.”
Ms H “Was it, was he driving so fast and erratically that you felt the need to be safe?”
TL “Yeah.”
Ms H “Erm and then you said he was driving on the wrong side of the road and I wasn’t comfortable anymore. Yes? And you were asked about if you went to look for him and just dropping down the page, it’s about. Can you see where there’s a hole punch on the left?”
TL “Yeah.”
Ms H “It’s just above the bottom hole punch. What you describe there is that, when you see, you see in the distance that Jays’ vehicle had been in another collision. And then you say ‘I walked towards Jays’ car, but I couldn’t see anyone there by the time I reached it, the other cars and the black cab had gone. I didn’t see Jay get out of the car or where he’d gone. I reached inside the car’ and you picked up your cigarettes and grinder. And then you say this ‘Close to where the car was there was a small alleyway which I think leads down to the marshes. It was bitch back, black and I did venture down it. Yes do you remember that?”
TL “That’s, that’s not what I said.”
Ms H “That’s not what you said. Do you remember going to look down an alleyway?”
TL “Is that on here yeah? Is that writ on here?”
Andrew Walker “Just, just pausing a moment.
TL “I wanna ask the police officers if I said that because I didn’t.”
Ms H “I’m reading this statement that you made Mr L. But, but, put the statement aside for the moment. At that time when you’ve looked in the car, did you look down the alleyway?”
TL “Yeah it was directly opposite.”
Ms H “So you did look down the alleyway?”
TL “Yeah but I didn’t venture down it.”
Ms H “Alright so forget the use of the choice of words, but you looked down the alleyway. Is that right?”
TL “Yes, but it’s directly opposite.”
Ms H “Tell us w hat you did.”
TL “Well where the car was and I seen the car crashed.”
Ms H “Yes.”
TL “And I’ve looked like that (TL turns around to look over his shoulder) and the alleyway was right there.”
Ms H “Yes.”
TL “And that’s when I saw the alleyway.”
Ms H “Did you go down the alleyway?”
TL “No.”
Ms H “No.”
TL “That’s been elaborate.”
Ms H “Alright. And, and, just, just again after the um first crash, you weren’t injured is that right?”
TL “Yeah.”
Ms H “And as far as you could tell Mr Ball wasn’t injured and he didn’t tell you he was injured in anyway?”
TL “No.”
Ms H “Thank you very much.”
Andrew Walker “Thank you I’m very grateful for you coming here today and your patience. I’ll release you, you needn’t stay unless you wish to do so, but you leave here with my thanks. Thank you very much indeed.”
Ruth Lovell “Excuse me, sorry, erm
Alexandria Harrison “Sorry erm …”
Andrew Walker “Just wait there a moment.”
Alexandria Harrison “What was Ambrose wearing, sorry.”
Ruth Lovell “Can you remember what he was wearing?”
Alexandria Harrison “Even the colours of the T-shirt.”
TL “When he was chasing V around the car, I think he had, he took his top off.”
Ruth Lovell “Do you remember what colour the top was?”
TL “No.”
Alexandria Harrison “What about in Dadyals did you see the colour of his top?”
TL “No but in the video he was wearing a jacket.”
Ruth Lovell “When you say running around the car,he was chasing V?”
TL “Yeah.”
Ruth Lovell “Sorry could you just say, can you explain that please?”
TL “V was backing away from him and he was just running around the car. V didn’t wanna go near him.”
Ruth Lovell “What Ambrose was chasing V?”
TL “Yeah.”
Ruth Lovell “Around the car. Gina.”
Alexandria Harrison “Er can I just ask, if as we were just told you put your seat belt on, because you were really worried because of how fast he was going , because of the speed, I just don’t understand why, why did you not get out of that car if you were that worried?”
TL “Stupidity.”
Ruth Lovell “Sorry?”
TL “Stupidity. I should have, I dunno.”
Alexandria Harrison “Okay. Did you know Ambrose before that night?”
TL “No I’ve heard of him though. Never spent time with him, but I’ve heard of him.”
Alexandria Harrison “Had you met him before?”
TL “No.”
Alexandria Harrison “So you never met Ambrose before that night?”
TL “No.”
Ruth Lovell “So you met him at Dady, at Southgate for the first time?”
TL “Yeah.”
Alexandria Harrison “And from Southgate you got into a car with somebody you’ve never met before?”
TL “No, but I’ve known his brother.”
Ruth Lovell “How did you know his brother?”
TL “From when D was trying to stop, calm him down. He was like ‘Jay Ball I know your brother’ and then I’ve came over and said yeah I know your brother.”
Ruth Lovell “Oh yeah okay.”
TL “That’s how, that’s how everything stopped.”
Ruth Lovell “Okay, thank you.”
Andrew Walker “Alright. Anything rising out of that? Ms H anything rising out of that?”
Ms H “No thank you Sir.”
Andrew Walker “Thank you very much etc …”
This is the end of the testimony given by TL, the eye witness for the Metropolitan Police.
The DISAPPEARANCE AND DEATH OF AMBROSE GARFIELD GENE BALL ... 